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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 3:00 pm 
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I was surprised like many were when John Kerry brought up Mary Cheney's name in the debate. The
week before John Edwards brought up her name. Mrs. Edward's is talking to the press about her too. I know Mary Cheney must be a strong women to
take all of this private attack. I think it shows
lack of compassion and is downright MEAN to keep using her name and referring to her in this campaign! These are cold, uncaring people with no
hearts. I know who I'm voting for and it certainly isn't men with no hearts! :)


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 5:01 pm 
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Private attack from who? Who's being heartless about Mary's sexual preference?
Didn't Cheney thank John Edwards about his comment in the debate? Edwards spoke of the strength of the Cheney family while dealing with their daughters orientation. Cheney's response was, "thank you for the kind words about my family and our daughter, I appreciat that very much"?
As far as Kerry goes, his statement was to make people understand that being homosexual isn't a choice. He said that "if you ask Mary Cheney, she would tell you that she is being exactly what god made her to be".

Folks, STOP watching Fox news..... I watched it this morning and it is terrible. I believe that Fox is a main reason that bush still has a chance in this election.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:32 am 
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I agree with Fushia. Kerry will do and say anything to win an election. This explains why it is impossible to nail him down on any issue. His position simply changes depending on what he thinks the people he is in front of want to hear. As a candidate for president, I think he is pitiful. As far as Fox News goes, I am thankful that there is at least one network that makes an attempt at being fair. I suppose that we could all watch Dan Rather and his croneys instead. Thank God that George Bush is going to win by a wide margin. I cannot imagine living in a country governed by the likes of John Kerry.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 5:11 am 
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Quote:
I cannot imagine living in a country governed by the likes of John Kerry.
Well, you'll have the next eight years to get used to it... ;)

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 1:08 pm 
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Yes, thank God George Bush is going to win by a wide margin. And thank God that dogs can talk, and the earth is flat, the tooth fairy exists, can you see where I'm going with this? :D

Personally I think that president that can't quite handle eating pretzels shouldn't have a CHANCE in this election ;)

<small>[ October 17, 2004, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: JayOMF ]</small>

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 6:20 pm 
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It does seem that Fox news leans toward Bush. However, isn't it great that we live in a country that freedom allows a news network to do this without government dictation.

Fox News did talk with a spokeswoman from the Kerry camp this AM, who refused to answer the questions but to her straight forwardly. It seems Kerry has friends that are in the same situation as the Cheney family, a lesbian daughter, yet chose to make it an issue for the Republican side. I for one will be glad when the election is over. As American's the most important aspect of our democracy is not so much who we vote for, but the fact that we do indeed vote.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:31 am 
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I always enjoy a good MJC 135 rant, at least for the humor value. They are usually heartfelt but so chock-full of unsupported accusations, right-wing propaganda and biased opinion stated as 'fact' that it would take the Special Response Team from factcheck.org days just to sort through it all.
Anyway, at this late stage of the game I don't think anyone is truly undecided or that what is said here will sway anyone one way or the other. I think that our minds, for the most part, were made up long ago and I'd be happy if the elections were held tomorrow just so we could get this over with.
I expect my guy to win and am willing to back that up. One all-you-can-eat walleye fish fry at Mr. Ed's says John Kerry wins. Any takers? :roll:

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 11:51 am 
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im in for a celebratory fish fry. as long as they have Heinz ketchup ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 4:49 pm 
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 6:39 am 
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Just a quick world update. I just came back from two great weeks in Europe, mostly Greece. I never felt anything less than welcome. They like Americans in Greece/Europe, they just don't like GW. I saw graffiti where the S in BUSH had been replaced with a swastika. Watching English speaking TV I learned that 80% of American expats were concerned by what has transpired during the current administrations tenure. 70% of Europeans polled have an unfavorable view of GW. Not one person complained about Afghanistan but most can't figure out why we went into Iraq.
I'm a registered Republican and I voted early. I would just like to add I voted FOR George W Bush BEFORE I voted against him.
Be sure YOU vote regardless of your preference.

" George W Bush is a closet weakling seeking to use inflexibility to show America he's strong." Norman Mailer


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:02 am 
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A poll was taken in most of the European countries. They asked if they could vote for a U.S. president, who would THEY vote for?

Not one country voted for Bush.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 1:14 pm 
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It seems that the truth throughout history is that Europeans haven't loved most American presidents. Europeans may not find the American public boorish but find our president, whomever he may be, to be so. Actually most Europeans do find Americans boorish, but that's not the issue here. European opinion of US presidents could be due to slanted news reports and statements taken out of contents. I guess I wouldn't base my vote for president on the opinions of Europeans. They may be friendly to Americans that are traveling and spending money in their countries but while traveling elsewhere they are rude and quite often nasty. Most times quite ignorant to the American public and their president.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 3:14 pm 
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Hey everybody! Be thankful we have a Pres who never makes a mistake and wouldn't, couldn't ;) admit it when he does.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 11:53 pm 
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deb, your generalizations about foreigners couldn't be more ignorant. "they are rude and quite often nasty". Please, that is ridiculous..... I know several people from Europe and have met many others over the last 5 years here in seattle. Ignorance about our public and the president couldn't be further from the truth. They, contrary to many americans, do not show the same laziness that seems to plague our public,,, when it comes to politics. They compare their homelands political system to ours, and give feedback as to the pros and cons of our current system.
My Swedish friend is not only one of the kindest people I've ever met, he's also more knowledgeable about politics (US and World) than anyone else I know. And, guess what, he thinks our great nation deserves a better leader.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 2:09 am 
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Of course our European "friends" hate us and our President. You might find some folks who visit the United States that are of the friendly sort but that is for one of two reason. Either they have an open enough mind to actually come and visit America and learn what were are not a bunch of pigs, and the other half are not about to insult you when they are out numbered.

The Americans who visit most European countries are not overly welcomed. The few exceptions usually are the folks who want our money and the few people who are not stuck up. We have become more popular after September 11th because Americans stopped flying there. This was a major hit to their economy, so they are happier to see us now. But if you ask the majority of Americans who have traveled over there they will tell you they did not feel welcome in most cases.

The Europeans have a negative opinion because their countries and there people are not the "Super Powers" that the United States is. This jealousy has been going on for longer then any of you can remember. And if their is one thing they hate more then an American it is a cowboy. They do not have cowboys over there, never have. But they picture a cowboy as the ultimate American authority. Back in the 1980's when terrorists were bombing airports and cafe's in foreign countries the one thing they told Americans traveling, DO NOT wear a cowboy hat. You would be the first person targeted.

George W. Bush is a cowboy. In his policy and in his life. They see him with the cowboy hat on and just despise him. Not of who he is necessarily, but because of what he represents.

With all of that said, if you are really worried about what Europe has to say when you go into the election booth then you should not be voting.

Before you even start with the "but we need them" talk keep in mind we have been going it alone and bailing them out long before George W. Bush came to office. We will all be fine with them overcharging and hating us no matter who becomes President.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 6:42 am 
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jcg2, my comments were not generalizations, but come from first hand experience. However ridiculous you may think that is, it was based on personal treatment and general observations while traveling. Naturally there are many Europeans that are not of that nature, unfortunately I have not had the pleasure of coming into contact with many of them. How much more ignorant, generalizing, and ridiculous could your comments be.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 9:03 am 
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I read the responses about the rudeness of Europeans. I've been traveling the world since 1966, have visited 37 different countries and have only had one souring experience, that coming from a Brit ( our friends, you know.) It could be because I've taken time to learn four languages other than English. To say Americans haven't gone to Europe since 9/11 is ludicrous. We continue to visit the rest of the world and the world continues to visit America. We are a great country, we aren't the only country.
It's not the politics the world dislikes about America, it's the arrogance of the current administration.
I wouldn't even attempt to influence your vote just like the Europeans didn't influence mine. You've got plenty of commercials to do that.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 3:27 pm 
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in fact, your statements were generalizations. "Most Europeans", "European opinion", "They", Most times".
I realize that I truly knee jerk reacted in my previous post, I apologize for that. I know that I responded with generalizations, and that there are always exceptions. The thing is, I have such a problem with statements that are thrown out to protect our president, when he should be held accountable. Somebody brings up an issue or topic(the overwhelming negative feelings towards bush by the European public), and instead of exploring why, the response is Europeans are rude and nasty. The U N disagreed with the start of the Iraq war, the response is, the U N is good for nothing, what do they know. Where are the weapons of mass destruction, the response is, our media is so liberal, it's obviously a witchhunt towards GWB.
The list goes on and on, but to me the questions are usually valid, and the answers from Bush and his supporters are deflections.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:49 pm 
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Bush Bad, Clinton Good - Go Figure

Clinton awards Halliburton no-bid contract in Yugoslavia - good
Bush awards Halliburton no-bid contract in Iraq - bad

Clinton spends $77 billion on war in Serbia - good
Bush spends $87 billion in Iraq - bad

Clinton imposes regime change in Serbia - good
Bush imposes regime change in Iraq - bad

Clinton bombs Christian Serbs on behalf of Muslim Albanian terrorists - good
Bush liberates 25 million from a genocidal dictator - bad

Clinton bombs Chinese Embassy - good
Bush bombs terrorist camps - bad

Clinton commits felonies while in office - good
Bush lands on aircraft carrier in flight suit - bad

No mass graves found in Serbia - good
No WMD found in Iraq - bad

Stock market crashes in 2000 under Clinton - good
Economy on upswing under Bush - bad

Clinton refuses to take custody of bin Laden - good
World Trade Centers fall under Bush - bad

Clinton says Saddam has nukes - good
Bush says Saddam has nukes - bad

Clinton calls for regime change in Iraq - good
Bush imposes regime change in Iraq - bad

Terrorist training in Afghanistan under Clinton - good
Bush destroys training camps in Afghanistan - bad

Milosevic not yet convicted - good
Saddam turned over for trial - bad

Ahh, it's so confusing


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 6:20 pm 
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" Ahh , it`s so confusing"

Kerry, if you believe just half of what you posted , you`re confused.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:24 pm 
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number of American soldiers killed during combat in Serbia under Clinton,,,, Zero. GOOD
number of American soldiers killed in Iraq under Bush,,,, Over 1000 and rising. BAD


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 8:01 pm 
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Found this rebuttal on the 'Net. Read on...

"You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts...
Clinton awards Halliburton no-bid contract in Yugoslavia - good
...because they were already there, having won a bid on a LOGCAP contract in 1992 and started work in the Balkans and his temporary contract award just allowed them to finish what they had started. There was no sense in switching mid-stream.

Bush awards Halliburton no-bid contract in Iraq - bad

...because of the impropriety of awarding a lucrative contract under conditions in which a clear conflict of interest could be said to exist, furthermore, if a normal bidding process was in place, Halliburton wouldnt have been able to try to commit fraud against the govt. and steal taxpayers money.

Clinton spends $77 billion on war in Serbia - good

...for a total cost of roughly $90 billion, 79 day air war, minimal loss of American life, ending a decade of ethnic cleansing in a multi-lateral effort of NATO.

Bush spends $87 billion in Iraq - bad

...because close to $140 billion has already been approved, with $25 billion more being submitted to Congress, coupled with a long-term occupation that could reach as high as $1.5 trillion over the next 5 years. This doesn't take into account the severe depletion of military equipment and manpower and the costs that will be necessary to re-supply both nor the impact on overall American security abroad and readiness to deploy. To see how the cost of the Iraq war affects your community, visit: www.costofwar.com

Clinton imposes regime change in Serbia - good

...because actually NATO imposed it. The US went into the Balkans as part of an international coalition intending to END an existing war. The US went into Iraq in a unilateral decision to START a war.

Clinton bombs Christian Serbs on behalf of Muslim Albanian terrorists - good

...because it came at a time when America should have stayed focused on its already-begun war in Afghanistan and the efforts to eliminate al-Qaeda in that region. Our lack of attention has allowed the network to rebuild to unprecedented levels, resulting in a steep increase in worldwide terrorist attacks. Remember, it took about 8 years from the Al Qaeda terrorist attack in the US in the early 90's to the one in 2001. It takes time to plan these things. We are not safer because of Bush.

FROM FACTCHECK.ORG: And Bush overstated matters when he said "My administration worked with the congress to create the department of homeland security." In fact, Bush opposed creation of the separate department for nearly nine months before turning around and supporting it.

Bush liberates 25 million from a genocidal dictator - bad

...because we were still involved in a war in Afghanistan which we had not finished, not to mention ignoring the worst humanitarian crisis in the world happening in Sudan. The war on terror centered in Afghanistan and the person who organized the attack in 2001 that killed thousands of Americans IS STILL FREE. I can't believe how stupid this argument is. If we put all the troops from Iraq and all the money into Afghanistan, there is no doubt all the leaders of AQ would be caught already. Also, the rest of the world was ready to fight alongside of us in Afghanistan.

FROM FACTCHECK.ORG: The President said twice that "75 percent" of al Qaeda leaders have been "brought to justice." But as The Associated Press reported Oct. 1, Bush was referring to the deaths or arrests of 75 percent of bin Laden's network at the time of the September 11 attacks -- not those who are running the terrorist organization today. Furthermore, the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies reported May 25 that the occupation of Iraq has helped al Qaeda recruit more members. The institute quoted "conservative" intelligence estimates as saying that al Qaeda has 18,000 potential operatives and is present in more than 60 countries.

Clinton bombs Chinese Embassy - good

...because NATO discovered it was being used to help Milosevic's forces with communications.

Bush bombs terrorist camps - bad

...because it has only been a half-hearted effort and not at all effective in stopping terrorists. IF YOU CAPTURE OSAMA, MOST OF THE FUNDING, MOTIVATION, AND LEADERSHIP WILL FALL.

Clinton commits felonies while in office - good

...because the "felony" in question was lying about something which was no one's business in the first place. The infidelity just hurt his family. What Bush has been doing is hurting us all.

Bush lands on aircraft carrier in flight suit - bad

...because he used American forces as stage-props for a political photo opportunity and declared an end to combat operations even as American deaths continued to mount. There are about 10x as many deaths now. And it was quite ironic that he wore a flight suit, given the fact that he got out of Vietnam, and further got out of even the National Guard while thousands of his lesser privileged country-men were dying for the cause.

No mass graves found in Serbia - good

That is just a lie. New mass graves are being discovered and have been discovered over the past 4 years. http://www.alb-net.com/pipermail/kcc-news/2002-June/000184.html http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a39a0443a536f.htm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1414735.stm

No WMD found in Iraq - bad

...because weapons inspectors weren't allowed to complete inspections nor given cooperation by America with whatever alleged intelligence was to be had. The Bush adminstration provided forged documents and "guesses" as evidence. Experts from around the world didn't think he had WMD. THE WHOLE REASON FOR THE WAR WAS BECAUSE HE WAS SUPPOSED TO HAVE WMD. We are broke, more Americans have died, and the world is really starting to hate us ALL FOR NOTHING.

Stock market crashes in 2000 under Clinton - good

...because it ended an artificial inflation based on tech promises that were too speculative. Thankfully, the overall growth of the Clinton economy saved us from Depression.

Economy on upswing under Bush - bad

...because his only solution has been voodoo economics, a tried and failed approach. Bush is the first president in 72 years to lose jobs. There is 1.6 million loss in private sector and these jobs are being replaced with low pay public sector positions which leaves nearly 600,000 loss in total.

FROM FACTCHECK.ORG: "The ad by the pro-Bush group Progress for America Voter Fund claims the economy was already in a recession when Bush took office, but the National Bureau of Economic Research (which dates business cycles) says the recession actually began in March 2001, after Bush took office in January.

Clinton refuses to take custody of bin Laden - good

...because the US doesn't enter negotiations with self-appointed third parties who are only looking to profit, such as what happened between the US and Sudan, not to mention the fact that Sudan couldn't have delivered anyway.

World Trade Centers fall under Bush - bad

...because he spent the year preceding the attack ignoring distinct warning signs such as intelligence that bin Laden was contemplating using aircraft as weapons, not to mention a total lack of interest in counter-terrorism in not meeting with his own counter-terrorism official. See the Commission on 9/11 report.

Clinton says Saddam has nukes - good

Bush says Saddam has nukes - bad

He was wrong. And he based a war on it where America suffers 90% of the costs and 90% of the lives. Its devastating that this happened shortly after 9/11; we've lost enough lives for no good reason.

Clinton calls for regime change in Iraq - good

...because it was a call for the Iraqi people to take responsibility for their country and for the international community to lend a hand in whatever way they could. See answer above.

Bush imposes regime change in Iraq - bad

See above again. WMD and link to AQ was the entire premise for going to war in the first place and now that it is blown, the administration is backpedaling and pushing the humanitarian angle. Even though he needed to go at some point, this was not the time or the reason for him to. THERE WERE NO WMD's and WAS NO CONNECTION BETWEEN IRAQ AND AL QAEDA. Money that we needed NOW to fight terrorism was spent on a war with no justification. It was a waste. See 9/11 Commission Report for more information.

Terrorist training in Afghanistan under Clinton - good

Clinton worked through diplomacy and calls for international pressure on Afghanistan's Taliban. On July 4, 1999, President Clinton declared a national emergency to deal with the threat posed by al Qaeda and the Taliban. In his Executive Order 13129, the President prohibited, among other things, the making or receiving of any contribution of funds, goods, or services to or for the benefit of the Taliban. There is a TIME Magazine special report out now that states that the action against al-Qaeda executed post-September 11 was actually a Clinton Administration plan that the Bush Administration delayed executing.

The Clinton White House had put together the war plan and presented it to Bush Administration officials in a briefing attended by National Security Advisor Sandy Burger and future NSA Condi Rice. The war plan hadn't been executed because "We would be handing (the Bush Administration) a war when they took office on Jan. 20," says a former senior Clinton aide. "That wasn't going to happen." Now it was up to Rice's team to consider what Clarke had put together.

Rice would end up executing the plan, but only after September 11 -- "In the words of a senior Bush Administration official, the proposals amounted to 'everything we've done since 9/11.'"

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,333835,00.html

On the other hand, after the attack on the USS Cole, TIME reports, JSOC at Fort Bragg drew up a plan for Delta Force to go into Afghanistan and take out bin-Laden. Clinton never approved the plan.

Bush destroys training camps in Afghanistan - bad

...because it's the same as the reason above. He didn't do it enough or properly. There are still terrorists there, and the kingpin as well, according to experts across the world.

Milosevic not yet convicted - good

How is this good? That's just stupid. He is currently on trial. "Milosevic, 63, who led Serbia for 13 years until he was ousted in 2000, faces 66 counts of war crimes allegedly committed during the violent break-up of Yugoslavia in the 1990s. He could be imprisoned for life if convicted of any charge."

Saddam turned over for trial - bad

What is this supposed to mean? This is just silly. Although I did find in the lateline news in Sept "Worsening security, legal complexities and the lack of an Iraqi lawyer willing to represent Saddam Hussein make it impossible for the ousted dictator and 11 others to stand trial any time soon"

Ahh, it's so confusing!

"Made even more so by the disingenuous usage of good and bad when describing these events." Unfortunately, no president is perfect and often we have to choose from bad and worse. There is no doubt in my mind that Bush is worse. Thankfully after watching the debates and doing research, I can now say that I feel comfortable voting for Kerry. I encourage everyone to make up their minds from doing your own research on places like factcheck.org and other non-partisan media sources. Usually, AP news and Reuters are somewhat clean of partisanship, its the worldwide newsfeed that network TV and newspapers use to translate the news. Also, look at different media sources from around the world to get a sense of what people are thinking outside of our partisan country."

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 8:36 pm 
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amazing post brian.....


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