Opening our borders & granting citizenship to illegal entrants, good idea? With many US jobs going outside US maybe US citizens will have to take jobs currently unattractive. I think many problems to result from GWB's immigration attitude. Agree or disagree?

It's immigrants, and what Bush is suggesting is not citizenship. It's a 3 year work permit for jobs that Americans are unwilling to do. For instance, in MN here most meatpacking places as well as canning factories have work forces that are mostly made up of immigrants, both those with green cards and those who are undocumented. Under Bush's plan if American citizens are available for any given job they get it over the immigrant. I don't have a problem with this. The IRS has for years provided undocumented workers with tax ID numbers so they can have taxes out of their wages. I'm for Bush's plan, it's better than the situation now.

_________________
Nell

More women die of lung cancer than breast cancer. If you smoke, quit. If you don't, don't start.

Friends never lets friends drive drunk.

I agree with Nell. Besides the reason that many jobs are leaving is due to cheaper off-shore labor. Unfortunately our labor rates are way higher (and our standard of living) than most other places in the world. We can blame our government and the Free Trade Agreement for the loss of jobs, not immagrants (sic).

_________________
"I think if you know what you believe, it makes it a lot easier to answer questions. I can't answer your question." - George W Bush

OK, immigrants! My bad! Can I give up my citizenship to qualify for free medical assistance?

The legislation proposed by the Bush Administration concerning immigration is being attacked from all sides -- and with good reasons.
First, it will not stop illegal immigration since it requires all immigrants to certify that they have jobs before immigrating and will require them to return to their country of origin if they lose those jobs. Since it anticipates an general amnesty for the some 8 million illegal immigrants already in this country, it sends a loud message that illegal immigration will ultimately be rewarded. Further, it does nothing to stem the flow -- some would say flood -- of illegal immigrants across our borders: no new measures to prevent such illegal immigration. Other provisions are troubling at best. For example, it would give credit to immigrants for work history in Mexico (or other countries of origin) in the Social Security System. This means that immigrants can become fully eligible for Social Security benefits earlier in their work history in this country because they will be given credit for work in their own countries -- despite the fact that that work did not include payments by them or their employers into the Social Security system. The costs of this aspect of the Bush Administration Immigration measure cannot at this point even be calculated. But one thing is sure: it will seriously impact an already overburdened Social Security System. Many see this an an election-year effort by President Bush to win the Hispanic vote in this country. If people look at the bill carefully and consider its long-term consequences it will or should have a negative effect on Bush's bid for re-election.

Yikes! Pull up a chair… hire a brass band…. mark your calendars… hold your breath here…. Because…….

I am about to say…..

I agree Bob Doolittle!!

Rewarding illegals is not good policy.

Not agreeing with all the reasons sated… but the general idea of rewarding and some of the benefits they will gain, is flawed policy imho.

Why should it be so difficult to find non-registered immigrants? As soon as they apply for free assistance it should be recorded who and where they are.

Undocumented immigrants do not apply for free assistance for that very reason. I live in a city with a very large population of immigrants, both documented and not.My parish is 98% immigrants from Central and South America. I know many immigrants personally, including undocumented. How many immigrants are in your community? I suggest you get to know some. Be a friend. My grandmothers were immigrants, they were not made to feel very welcome here, one from Germany, one from Ireland. In their memory I try to make immigrants I meet feel welcome here. We are a nation built by immigrants and we will continue to be.

_________________
Nell

More women die of lung cancer than breast cancer. If you smoke, quit. If you don't, don't start.

Friends never lets friends drive drunk.

The real issue, of course, is LEGAL immigration. This week, in Tulsa, Oklahoma, a man and wife who are both medical doctors were required to leave and return to Egypt because their visas had expired. The husband was a specialist in pediatric cancer treatment, one of a very few such specialists available in the area. Nevertheless, that's the law. I am in favor of an immigration system that leads to citizenship. Otherwise, we run the risk of creating a permanent underclass system of people who work at jobs no one else wants for very low pay and neglible benefits. How do you suppose that underclass will be viewed and treated? Hispanics have demonstrated the ability to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and become productive citizens. But, under the Bush plan, there is no avenue for citizenship. They could not, for example, create their own business. They must be able to name an employer or face deportation within a relatively short period. They will receive three-year visas which MAY BE renewed,but are not guaranteed renewable. Yes, I believe we should provide avenues for Hispanics and others to enter this country to accept jobs where those jobs exist. BUT I oppose any proposal which views these immigrants as a permanent underclass with no prospects for citizenship.

Jimbo, I live in a county where there is a huge number of both legal and illegal immigrants. I had an employee a few years back who’s wife was the director of a county program and did nothing but hand out money to needy people. The vast majority were immigrants and a very large percentage were illegals with no identification, no green card, not legal address or any other form of verifiable proof that they were even alive other then the fact that they were standing there in front of her. If they qualified, which wasn't all that hard to do, they got money. I won’t say no questions asked, because she was allowed to ask more question then a lot of other officials are allowed to ask. But, the information was highly confidential and only a court order with just cause could get that information. Not even immigration, county DA, Sheriffs department or any one else could get it.

These people have rights.

Like the time a Mexican ran a stop sign and hit my wife. By some miracle she was not hurt but he nearly totaled her car. He had no driver’s license, no insurance. He admitted he ran a red light, three witnesses standing waiting to cross the street, all Mexicans, said he ran the light. I asked the cop if he was going to cite the guy and was told it was none of my business. I asked if he was a citizen or legal alien, he told me he, as a cop, could not ask that question.

Later I found out he was not even cited because he was “thought to be” an illegal and if he was cited he would only run to Mexico and never be heard of.

<small>[ January 13, 2004, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: JFlosum ]</small>

.

The only thing that made sense to me when the "shrub" (little bush) said that the eight million illegals could come out of the shadows and sign up, no need to hide anymore, would have been to round them up and escort them to the border, point them south and kick them in the butt as they go back. Oh, that might seem deceiptful to some folks, but let's remember they came here illegally, sneaking through our border patrols, maybe even being chased by our border patrols. They start they're new life here by breaking our laws. But I have a good idea, let's let them vote in California, and why don't we give them unlimited Visas to come and go from country to country without any fear of being turned down by either. We could encourage them to earn this money over here in the USA and then go back to invest it in their homeland. Mama-Mia, what's going on in your head "shrub"

I think shrub has lost a leaf or two on this one. Might even have a liberal gopher chewing at his roots!

Baby, I don't beleive I or anyone is "dumping" on immigrants. Supposedly if we're not American Indian, all of us Americans' ancestors are from foreign lands. But we're not talking about immigrants. We're talking about illegal aliens, sneaking in or overstaying their Visas and just blending in, working and not paying taxes. How would you like a 33% raise. Don't pay income tax and you'll have it. Illegals have it. Our ancestors floated past that statue of liberty and their hearts filled with anticipation and hope, then they stood in immigration lines and became legal citizens. That's a whole different paint job.

Originally posted by Catfish:
But we're not talking about immigrants. We're talking about illegal aliens, sneaking in or overstaying their Visas and just blending in, working and not paying taxes. How would you like a 33% raise. .......Our ancestors floated past that statue of liberty and their hearts filled with anticipation and hope, then they stood in immigration lines and became legal citizens.

Catfish, undocumented immigrants do pay taxes. The IRS gives them a tax payer's number, knowing they are not documented and don't have social security numbers. The IRS has been doing this for years. In Minnesota the packing and canning industries would come to a screeching halt if every undocumented person was deported. American citizens don't rush to work in a packing house or canning fractory. The next time you stay in a hotel in any metropolitan area look at the cleaning crew, they are almost entirely Hispanic and many are undocumented. They pay taxes and have the same deductions from their pay checks as the rest of us who work. Citizens on welfare, now they don't pay near the amount of taxes as we who work, citizen or undocumented. Undocumented people cannot go on welfare. They are hard workers. They also take care of one another. They are far more generous in helping others than we are.

The roofing industry in many states would also collapse without undocumented workers. I can attest to their ability to get a roof done fast and efficiently. They did a far superior job in 2 days than the American citizens who did my neighbor's roof in a month, constant problems with not showing up for the job, drinking, and fights.

When our grandparents or great grandparents immigrated here they did not have to apply ahead of time and obtain a visa. They did not have to show proof they had a job waiting for them. That is much different from today when a person wanting to emigrate here must obtain a visa and show proof of a job offer. There are long waits for visas, 5 to 10 years is not unusual. The people who today can obtain visas and a green card are those who are wealthy and highly educated. When our ancestors emigrated from their homelands they came because they were poor. The wealthy seldom left their homelands. The first federal legislation restricting immigration wasn't until 1875. The immigration laws we have today were put in place by the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952. A high number of our ancestors would not be allowed in today.

Many of the immigrants of the past never became American citizens. Their children were citizens by virtue of being born here. And some immigrants did go through the long process of becoming citizens. But just as many did not.

All of us who are descended from immigrants should appreciate the struggle of today's immigrants. My Irish grandmother spoke of how she was treated when she arrived from Ireland. People despised the Irish because they practiced what the establishment of the day considered a heathen religion, Catholicism. My grandmother told of signs in the windows of stores, "No Irish need apply here." The Irish were wanted to dig the Erie Canal and lay tracks for the new railroad indistry, beyond that Americans had no use for them. My German grandmother was treated terribly during both WWI and WWII. Every time I am with new immigrants, which is frequently, I treat them with the respect that I wish my two grandmothers could have been treated.

My two sons are immigrants, they are from Colombia. I have to tell you, racism is alive and well in north central Wisconsin and Minnesota. The only time my one son was called a "nigger" was in Tomahawk. There is no excuse for anyone to call others names and to call an innocent child names says nothing about the child but lots about the spineless adults who do so. Get to know some immigrants on a person to person basis, listen to their stories. Then you might be a little less judgemental. Also, take a course on the history of immigration, you'd learn a lot. I count many undocumented immigrants among my friends. Those who are most critical of immigrants are those who do not work side by side, or worship side by side with undocumented people.

<small>[ January 18, 2004, 12:37 PM: Message edited by: NurseNell ]</small>

_________________
Nell

More women die of lung cancer than breast cancer. If you smoke, quit. If you don't, don't start.

Friends never lets friends drive drunk.

NurseNell, it certainly is too bad that your children had to be victims to racist behavior, especially in such a fine community as Tomahawk, it doesn't surprise me however. Just to correct you on the roofing industry. For the most part those companies that employ undocumented or illegals are frowned upon in the roofing industry. They pay low wages, less in industry insurances, etc., therefore bidding jobs at far lower amounts of money than their competitors. These workers also, for the most part, have no experience that leads to poor workmanship. Most times these companies aren't able to return for repairs or have issued warranties for their work due to the low ball bidding. This business practice requires another roofing company to go in do repairs and try to explain to the building owner why there is no warranty to cover these added expenses. My husband is in the roofing industry in wholesale, although his customers are in northcenteral Wisconsin he has many peers in metros Chicago and Minneapolis. He has heard many stories regarding illegals and undocumented workers and the roofing companies they work for. Granted in many cases the fault lies with the owners of these roofing companies and not the illegals, they are just trying to make a living. It is quite untrue that the roofing industry would collapse if it weren't for the undocumented and illegals.

_________________
Life is too short for drama & petty things!
So, laugh insanely, love truly and forgive quickly!

Nurse Nell, you're saying that undocumented immigrants do pay taxes. Once again, we are not talking about immgrants, documented or undocumented. We are talking about illegal aliens. Bush said we have over 8 million illegals here hiding. He's encouraging them not to have to hide in the shadows any longer(his exact words) These illegals overstayed their Visas and filtered in and are working for cash. Some snuck across our borders and are here working for cash. But why would an employer want to pay them cash? Because they can offer them less for not taking taxes off, which results in the same net pay for the worker, but a substancial savings to the employer. Additionally the employer doesn't have to "match" the social security with-holding. If the government doesn't know where these people are, how can you say they are paying taxes?

Catfish, illegal aliens and undocumented immigrants are the same thing. Some people use the term illegal aliens, other use the term undocumented immigrants. They do pay taxes. The IRS does issue numbers to illegal aliens, as you prefer to call them. I know this for a fact, I am a member of a faith-based coalition called Isaiah that works on immigrants rights and other issues. Don't take my word for it however.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/04/14/politics/main549153.shtml

Deb, I can only report my personal experience when it comes to roofing. Both of my neighbor's roofs were done very poorly by a locally owned and operated company who used no undocumented workers. My roof was done efficiently and has had no problems in the 5 years since. Also, there was a report in the Saint Paul Pioneer Press about 2 years ago in which they reported on industries that would be seriously impacted by the loss of undocumented workers, one such industry was roofing. I have no doubt there are some groups of illegal immigrant roofers who do slipshod work, roofing seems to be an industry that attracts scam artists. There are groups of roofers who head north for the summer and south for the winter, this was as true in the 1950's and 60's as it is today. They call themselves roofers but all they are are scam artists. There are scam artists who do the same thing with house painting.

The main point I've tried to make is that these people, call them illegal aliens or undocumented workers, are human beings who come here for the SAME reasons our grandparents and great grandparents did, for the chance to improve the lives of the families. Most of our ancestors would not be admitted to this country today if the same laws we have today were in place when they came. Immigrants have always been poor people coming here to live the American dream. The least we who call ourselves Christian or Jewish can do is treat them with the respect and dignity denied our own ancestors.

_________________
Nell

More women die of lung cancer than breast cancer. If you smoke, quit. If you don't, don't start.

Friends never lets friends drive drunk.

>undocumented immigrants do pay taxes. The IRS gives them a tax payer's number<

Not all of them pay taxes. A very large, all cash, underground economy exists and is growing in leaps and bounds.

It is not all that unusual for farm labor to be hired at the lowest possible going rate with a cash bonus paid at the end of the season. None of that cash is taxed.

Some of the smaller farms hire and pay all cash, tax free, to a large percentage of their seasonal workforce.

There are any number of unlicensed, non-tax paying gardening, house painting, yard cleanup, car detailing, upholstery and other business enterprises that compete directly with fully legal business.

There is also a large number of picture frames, pottery, leather goods, produce and other products that go door to door or set up at busy intersections selling their wares, again no taxes no licenses and all cash. The products themselves come into the country by the truckloads, some legal some not legal. But a lot of both end up being sold untaxed, all cash.

>Undocumented people cannot go on welfare.<

What do you call free medical care for one? Any of the above mentioned tax evaders can walk into most emergency rooms and get fee medical care. And I’m not talking about emergency only. They can also receive treatment for non-emergency conditions.

As I pointed out before there are any number of social handout programs where they can get legal money. The one I wrote about earlier is a county program. It is not unusual for some illegals, to go from county to county and get money. When they do, it becomes illegal. Every now and then we see one get busted. But for every one busted there is probably 10 that get away with it.

Then there is outright lying and false documents that they use to get into the mainstream welfare programs. Let’s not forget that the forged documents coming out of Mexico has become a very lucrative business.


>racism is alive and well in north central Wisconsin and Minnesota<

There is no exclusivity on racism. In California some of the most vicious bigotry we see is the Mexicans form Mexico, both legal and illegal, towards the Mixteca “Indians” from Mexico. Even the kids on the playgrounds exhibit shocking brutality against these people. Then you have the TexMex and the CalTex bigotry that has escalated to outright gang warfare, not only in Los Angeles, San Diego metro areas, but also in the rural farm communities where they compete for jobs. And of course the Hispanic community has not lost much love on blacks. That too has caused more then a bit of violence. Then we can talk about the battles between the Filipinos and the Mexicans…. Racism is alive and well and being practiced by people from all over the globe.

This is true, and it isn't only illegals doing it. I've been aware of people with jobs who get paid under the table since the 1950's. Bar tenders, waitresses, pizza delivery people, house painters, and the list is endless. Lots of people do this, it even goes on in Tomahawk. It goes on everywhere. So why single out illegals?

>>>There are any number of unlicensed, non-tax paying gardening, house painting, yard cleanup, car detailing, upholstery and other business enterprises that compete directly with fully legal business. <<<

So, when you become aware of these operations do you report them or do you just sit back? Do you ever use such services? If I were personally aware of such an operation I would report it. It won't stop if everyone looks the other way.

>>>There is also a large number of picture frames, pottery, leather goods, produce and other products that go door to door or set up at busy intersections selling their wares, again no taxes no licenses and all cash. <<<

I've never encountered this door to door. I have seen them at busy intersections, here in Saint Paul it's African Americans and whites selling the products. Ever looked at the products. Anyone dumb enough to pay money for the incredibly tacky, poorly constructed items deserves what they get.

>>>What do you call free medical care for one? Any of the above mentioned tax evaders can walk into most emergency rooms and get fee medical care. And I’m not talking about emergency only. They can also receive treatment for non-emergency conditions. <<<

Here for an undocumented worker to go to the ER means the person is deathly sick, they do not go for routine illnesses because the know they'll get turned in to INS. I've known several undocumented people who were so sick they had to use a hospital, and after they recovered they were deported. Pregnant illegals can get maternity care through the county. I suppose folks would rather they couldn't but since women with prenatal care deliver healthier babies it's in everyone's best interest because any baby who is born here with serious medical problems will get services, they are American citizens.

Our immigrant ancestors also got free medical care, and didn't get turned in to INS because INS didn't exist then, no one had to have a pre approved visa to enter the country.

>>>As I pointed out before there are any number of social handout programs where they can get legal money. <<<

Are you positive the people you see are illegal immigrants? Do you personally know their immigration status? Refugees can get short term assistance. You cannot assume every immigrant is an undocumented worker. Refugees are admitted legally, they are given refugee status because of strict government/INS rules. Minnesota has more refugees than any state in the country. Currently most of our refugees admitted in the last 2 years are from Somalia, Ethiopia, and there are still some Hmong being admitted as refugees. Beginning this summer 14,000 Hmong refugees will be entering the country, at least 7,000 of them will be coming to Saint Paul. You cannot tell by seeing a person what their status is.

>>>Racism is alive and well and being practiced by people from all over the globe.<<<

Sadly, this is true. As a mother who witnesses this against her sons I despise racism.

_________________
Nell

More women die of lung cancer than breast cancer. If you smoke, quit. If you don't, don't start.

Friends never lets friends drive drunk.

Nurse Nell, you make me laugh. You say illegal aliens are the same as undocumented immigrants, and that they do pay taxes, and the IRS issues numbers to these illegal aliens. If that's the case how come Bush and the government don't know who or where they are? "You don't have to hide in the shadows any more, come out and sign up..." Does it sound like they're paying taxes. And thank you JFlosum for recognizing that a "very large, all cash, underground economy exists" and as you say is flourishing. The sheeple say they can't see the forest because the trees are in the way.

Catfish, do your homework. Undocumented immigrants, aka illegal aliens, are issued tax payer numbers by the IRS. I know a lot more undocumented workers than you do. Did you go read this link? http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/04/14/politics/main549153.shtml

As for a large underground economy, of course such exists. As many citizens as non citizens take part in it. Surely we all know people who get paid cash under the table. That goes on everywhere, including Tomahawk.

What is a sheeple?

_________________
Nell

More women die of lung cancer than breast cancer. If you smoke, quit. If you don't, don't start.

Friends never lets friends drive drunk.

http://www.gamaliel.org/ISAIAH/

Read the myths about immigration.

To those readers who are anti illegal immigrants I still ask, how many do you personally know or work with? How many live in Tomahawk?

<small>[ January 21, 2004, 07:27 AM: Message edited by: NurseNell ]</small>

_________________
Nell

More women die of lung cancer than breast cancer. If you smoke, quit. If you don't, don't start.

Friends never lets friends drive drunk.

>illegal aliens, are issued tax payer numbers by the IRS. I know a lot more undocumented workers than you do.<

Maybe what 10-15% are issued numbers? Even if 50% are issued numbers, that don’t mean the information they gave is correct or they are reporting earnings. Give me a break!

I’ve lived with these people everyday for 40 years, 10’s of thousands of them. The vast percentage of these people are great and wonderful people just seeking a better life. But they do not operate on the same value system we do.

They come form a system that is so corrupt that cheating and telling non-truths to authority figures is a way of life, and most of them carry that over and continue live the same way once they get here.

The statement of being anti illegal is nonsense. They are illegally in this country. We are a society of laws. We do not and should not get to select what laws we are and are not going to obey. If you do, you are a criminal.

They come from a third world country that is as backwards as it is because for the most part the entire county is corrupt.

The underground economy for illegal is probably at least 100 to 1 compared to legal residents, maybe higher. Don’t obfuscate the facts. Legal residents don’t have the option of escaping prosecution by fleeing back across the border when they get caught. These illegals do it all the time.

I don’t have to go to that link to read about the myths of illegal immigrants. I live it everyday. Not to mention you are posting enough of them right here in this room!

Again Nurse Nell, I am amazed and astounded by your naivety. Have you ever watched CNN or any other footage of these illegals running in five different directions while the border patrol chases the bulk and each time a few get to scramble away. How, oh how, are these people issued tax numbers from the IRS?? These people now have a room at the YMCA and are currently washing dishes at Mel's Diner. The guy at the front desk at the YMCA doesn't care who he is when he collects the room rent and he didn't even ask if he was a US citizen. Go and figure. But the IRS did know he checked in there and is on the way with their tax numbers. At least that's what they said...!!!

"Sheeples' are people being led aroung like a herd of sheep by the government. Did you ever read, "Animal Farm" by George Orwell? Back in the, I think 30's, he wrote that book from Britian. They weren't sure if it was a childrens fairy tale or a satire slam on American government. Napoleon, the head pig, or presumably the president, holds barnyard meetings or "state of the union addresses" horn-schwagulling and brain-washing the citizens of the farm into believing anything. The sheeple thing is, I believe, a Libertarian thing.