.

Dopey, if you read in the Old Testament Exodus 12:46, Numbers 9:12 and Psalm 34:20, they all mention the bones not being broken. Also, in Isaiah chapter 53, it is full of the prophecy of Jesus dying for our sins. In the New Testament, John 19:36 also tells us that Jesus fulfilled the scripture that say "not one of His bones will be broken."

Thank you tinman. That's where I found the information also.
Dopey Dwarf, if you have any reference questions regarding the Bible, in the back of the Bible is a Concordance. You can look thru this by subject, or for more information on a particular word. This may help you, as it has helped me alot.
To be honest, I haven't seen the movie. For me, it's not something that I want to do. I know the stripes my Lord has born, the crown of thorns, the scorn, the nails and blood shed for me, but mostly I know of the great love that God has shown me by allowing thru His Grace this to happen. I just don't think I could bear to see it on a screen. Being who I am, I am just thankful that thru Christ I can now have a relationship with God, and that thru Christ's sacrifice I can go to my Heavenly Father and not have the ties broken.

Dopey Dwarf, I can't recall there being mention of the broken bones in the New Testament, as a prophesy. It is mentioned when Christ was on the cross. It was written in the Old Testament, so that we would know that this is the Christ - Son of God. You see, there were many calling themselves the Nashua, or the Redeemer at this time, (due to the Romans control over the Israeli people), and much like the warnings and watches that we are told of in the New Testament - concerning the times - there were also many statements in the Old Testament to tell us that Christ was who he was, and how we would know him to be such.
As far as words being lost in the many translations - The Old Testament is the beginning of mankind and earth. Then we see the tribes of Israel being established, and the sins of the people. This is so we can understand God's way, and His want to establish a relationship with His chosen. We also are able to read the prophesies of ancient people concerning our Lord. We see the lineage of David form and come to the New Testament. In the New Testament, we are given the Cross - once again we are given the free will to accept or reject God and His Grace. But, if we choose to accept, then God has sent His Word to help us to have a closer walk with Him. And also to help in the establishing of the church as the body of Christ. I don't see how translations could affect the outcome of the scriptures, as the nature of them is a relationship with God, and as God is the true author, He would not allow Hiw Word to be twisted. I think in the newer translations, alot of the beauty of the old English and the Aramic is missing, but the understanding of what God wants for us - as His people - still remains.

Squash, I just saw your question on carbon 14 dating. I'm not sure how I feel on this type of dating. If you are a scientist, and want to prove the age of the earth to include evolution - then this system would work. If you are a non-evolustionist, then this system doesn't. Unless you accept the theory that the earth was here and was part of the Angelic war in the time that Satan was cast out of Heaven, then it might be worthy of understanding. I find the theory of Carbon 14 dating interesting, because I think that the earth was here and created by God by was still void during the Angelic struggle.

Interesting thread, just had to post! If Adam and Eve had not sinned in the Garden Of Eden, mankind would be living in a perfect paradise on earth, this is what God originally intended for mankind. But, because they sinned, and God loved his creation (humans), he layed forth the bible's first prophecy, at Genesis 3:15 predicting a "seed", namely Jesus to come forth and exchange (ransome sacrifice) his perfect life for Adam's life, thus buying back what was lost. This enabled future humans the chance to worship God and to approach him, through Jesus, in prayer. His death also enables our sins to be forgiven, Ephesians 1:7. Satan the devil, from the beginning, by deceiving Eve and causing the sin in Eden has set forth events that have caused mankind to die, live in suffering and feel that there is no hope. Jesus "bought" back what Got originally intended for man and earth. The bible points forth events which will mark the last days of lawlessness by wicked humans. Anyone with a brain can see the progression of wars, famine, sickness and disease. Eventually, Satan and his demons will be destroyed, Rev. 20: 1-3, Romans 16:20. Earth will be returned to paradise and there will be a resurrection, John 5:28, 29, Acts 24:15. Psalms 37:11 talks about the earthly paradise as well as Matthew 6:10. Incidentally, there is no such thing as **** ! The bible speaks of Sheol, (Ecclesastes 9:5,10), but this is a Hebrew word..She'ohl', which means "common grave". God is Love, and does not cause death or sickness or unhappiness. He sets forth principles and laws in the bible for healthy living, marriage and clean living. One more thought, carbon dating is fine, but the flood has thrown off the fossil record.

the theory of evolution has more evidence in support of it than any other theory in history in regards to the origin of life. though i strictly reside in the evolutionist perspective, i would like to point out that evolution and creation theories could co-exist and also that to disregard carbon dating because you believe in creation is ridiculous.

Evolution and creation cannot co-exist...if you believe one part of the bible you need to believe all part of the bible. You can't pick and choose the parts you like and disregard the ones that don't suit you. 2 Timothy 3: 16, "All scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, reproving, for setting things straight...." If you believe this, then creation of humans and animals and every living being is by God in the beginning. Just the miracle of conception and birth should make someone appreciate the design of humans and the forethought that went into the way things are created and continue to reproduce. Too much is left to chance with evolution and there are too many wonderful works by God that refute that it all happened from one cell and developed over time.

Well put, Looks too Far. I agree wholeheartedly.

Me too. Well put.

Creation and evolution can coexist. If God created the universe and all beings in it, then we'll go ahead and call that the beginning of all species. But since that original creation by God, species inevitably begin to evolve and adapt to their environment and its changes. It is impossible for all present day species to have existed at the beginning in the exact forms that they exist as now. Darwin wasn't even aware of the Big-Bang theory or the like. He was raised Christian and had set out to go into the ministry. He only became agnostic once his brother and father and grandfather had begun to be cast out of the church because of their research which made him lose faith in churches/organized religion as an institution and not Christianity as a whole.

The bible says in Genesis that God created every living thing "according to their kind". Kinda leaves the evolution thing out.

Kinda leaves the bible out if you ask me. The bigger issue here is that we as Christians ought to be seeking threads of consensus instead of beating the stuffings out of these issues. Regardless how it all came about and in what ways God worked his magic, we need to come together. If the umbrella is not big enough to cover all Christians in the spectrum, then we have to ask some serious questions about how we are handling the bumbershoot. As we often do in business, we must agree to disagree about many things but realize that we are all headed in the same direction. Mutual respect and the certainty that God appears to different people in many different forms will most certainly make us stronger and make out individual faith stronger as well.

Well, I'm not a Christian. I wasn't trying to involve the Bible for any other reason than to show that evolution is an inevitable part of nature, regardless of wether it started with God or a single cell organism. Though I must agree with you, Dave, that God has many definitions for many different people. I must say though, that right-wing-white Christians seem to think that it appears in no other way than their way.

Right wing has nothing to do with it. Black and white print in the form of the Bible is the strong word here, no matter how you slice it. You can choose to read into it what you will, or omit parts if they don't suit you, but the fact is that the Bible says what it says, and you simply can't refute that. Imagining the rest of us are right wing for believing what it says and taking it for it's worth is rather a narrow way to catogorize. If a person quotes you a scripture and then you actually look it up for yourself, well, that isn't right wing, that isn't my idea, that's God's word. It doesn't really get any more simple than that.

I wasn't categorizing all Christians as right wing. I was just saying, for an example, that so many right wing Christians think their way is the only way. I understand that the Bible is a significant source of nourishment for people's appetite to know what life is all about, but it's not for me. No one ever has hard evidence as to why the Bible is true, they only use scripture to define it and that isn't enough.

i agree clementine. If a person reads the stories of the bible and it personally "nourishes" them or causes a positive emotional response, then great. But the bible, at times, is used by some as a close minded preaching device. There are too many inconsistencies and contradictions for me to use it as a spiritual guide for living a good life.

_________________
It is sort of fascinating that you can have 100 percent certainty about weapons of mass destruction and zero certainty of about where they are.
~ Hans Blix
UN chief Weapons Inspector

Could you please give me an example of one of those contradictions?

I'm not much of a deep thinker or very articulate, as many on this board will agree, however, the only evidence that I need that we were created rather than evolved is what I see when I wake up every morning. The sky, the green earth, lakes, and so on. Tell me where's the proof that this all came from a single cell? I'm interested too in the many biblical contradictions. I maybe simple, but much can be said from a favorite children's hymn, "For the Bible tells me so."

_________________
Life is too short for drama & petty things!
So, laugh insanely, love truly and forgive quickly!

I don't know, Deb. You seem like a deep thinker to me! And your post was great !I wonder why it's sometimes hard for people to admit that us humans aren't nearly as intelligent as we like to think we are. That is, why do we need to put every little thing in scientific terms, to narrow it down to what we can understand. God is so big and so far beyond what we can comprehend that I think it makes people nervous and try even harder to prove that He had no hand in creation. I have a wonderful friend who says "you can't put God in a box" and I think, for some, they would like to be able to do just that because that would bring Him down more to our level. Personally, I'm glad He's so much bigger and smarter when I look at how we humans have messed things up.

To me, the Bible is a book of great stories. The inconsistencies tell me that it was written by man, over many centuries. I appreciate the Bible, but do not use it as a spiritual resource.
A few examples:
Murder-
“Thou shalt not kill… “ – Exodus 20:13
”Thus sayeth the LORD God of Israel, "Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour" –- Exodus 32:27
Punishing Crime-
"The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father..." -- Ezekiel 18:20
"I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation..." -- Exodus 20:5
Temptation-
"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." -- James 1:13
"And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham..." -- Genesis 22:1
Sabbath day-
"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy." -- Exodus 20:8
"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." -- Romans 14:5

_________________
It is sort of fascinating that you can have 100 percent certainty about weapons of mass destruction and zero certainty of about where they are.
~ Hans Blix
UN chief Weapons Inspector

The sky, lakes and the entire earth came from a single cell? Someone has a less than complete understanding of anthropology...

Its fascinating to me how some people can ignore the entire fossil record when convenient. You guys really should do a little research and see for yourself what kind of evidence that the scientific community has dug up before you completely discount all of it. The evidence of human evolution in the fossil record is completely overwhelming.

Tell me Deb/tinman, do you believe that dinosaurs once existed on this planet?

humbug,I was the one referencing a single cell, not Deb, who made the lakes, skies, etc. comment. Also, I was not saying that all of nature came from a single cell. I was only saying that there is a large possibility that life came from single celled organisms or the like. I agree with you whole-heartidly about how people conveniently forget the fossil record. That's exactly what I was saying when I said that evolution has more evidence behind it than any other scientific theory in history. With all due respect for Christians, it seems that it's more of a comfort blanket. Most Christians that I know have never even looked into other religions or even studied evolution and so many were brought up Christian and have never made an attempt at other modes of thinking. Plus, they keep an open mind, as long as it's only other Christians that they are talking about. Jesus would never stay away from anyone, regardless of their religion, past or the life they lead. And Tomahawk, though I love it there, is one of the most judgemental places I've ever stepped foot and I think it's safe to say that it's predominantly Christian. The whole idea of this mystical creator floating in the heavens seems a little archaic. Think of how unrealistic Greek mythology seems... How is Christianity, or any religion, really, that different? The way I see it, religions are all part of evolution. Once humans evolved so far that their minds began to consider other things than food and shelter, they started wondering what the heck they were and what purpose they serve, enter religions. When I think it is more realistic to realize that we are a simple part of nature.

Also, back to my original point.... Regardless of wether or not God created the universe, evolution exists.

I do believe in God. I think this entire universe was created by some higher power. Life evolved on this planet just like it probably does on every one of the billions (or trillions) of planets in the universe where the environmental conditions permit it.

The most tragic side-effect of organized religion -- aside from the millions of people that have been persecuted and killed due to religious intolerence -- is that billions of people waste large portions of their lives immersed in religious ritual when they could be doing something fun.

Ignorance is bliss I guess....

Im really starting to sound like Carl Sagan. I got to lay off the caffeine.

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