Are you ready to become a Tomahawk ??sunfish??. Will we be able to keep the name of the city Tomahawk. The wisconsin state superintendent wants to get rid of Indian names/logos & mascots. So where do we fit. A hatchet (by definition) is a small ax with a short handle (which specifically is a tomahawk). Webster doesn't say anything about it being Indian in nature - I think anyone can use it. The point is, being a logo or mascot denotes strength or bravery. It's not ok to be a Wausau Warrior, but you can be a Minnesota Viking - how do the vikings feel about that etc. Lets stop picking - the schools are there to educate students & help to prepare them for life - which isn't always fair. To learn to deal with the good & bad and tough & easy. Let's carry on. Wis. is rich in Native American culture as well as European. How much do we know or hear about the Norwegians (rah!), the Swedes, or Danes. Maybe we should be called Tomahawk the Great.

Voice your opinion - call/write the superintendent. Web site can be found through google - she (the state superintendent) has her own.

Go you mighty Hatchets.
National anthem - home of the brave?? do we need to rephrase that?

Buzzy

I could never figure out why Lakeland hasn't been hastled about being the Thunderbirds, isn't that Indian in origin. Also anyone that can read a dictionary knows that a hatchet is French in origin and was a implement used by the French and given to the Indians. What a waste of taxpayers money. BTW Tomahawk made the Eau Claire paper on Monday with this story.

<small>[ January 03, 2006, 08:09 PM: Message edited by: Deb Richardson ]</small>

_________________
Life is too short for drama & petty things!
So, laugh insanely, love truly and forgive quickly!

I hope the Hatchet doesn't get the axe. Who ever heard of a school or team to disparage or derogate their team with a derogatory name. That would be detracting your team and it's image. In fact the Indian culture should feel honored that anyone would place their namesakes and heritage in such high esteem. Tonto, get a grip, we love you.

Catfish, I'm sorry to say but the Tonto thing is now also considered degrogatory. Although we loved the Lone Ranger and thought Tonto was pretty cool.
I do recall, in the not too distant past, a parent of a Hatchet football player starting the Tomahawk chop. This gentleman is full blooded Indian and felt that his culture was over reacting and they should feel proud.
I do believe that a few years back the DPI contacted Tomahawk regarding this same matter, at that point I do believe that the feathers were removed from some of the logos that the district used.
Although no longer a district taxpayer I appeal the school board to not cave in to such a trivial matter.

_________________
Life is too short for drama & petty things!
So, laugh insanely, love truly and forgive quickly!

I figured it would be, just as the "Tomahawk Hatchets" is now derogatory. Why don't I say, "Hey, handsome man with the Indian Name, get a grip, we love you"! How's this? Ladies and gentleman, the Merrill BlueJays have fallen behind and the Boys from Tomahawk with the chopping tool are now ahead in this two point game."

Perhaps I should go to all the Viking home games and protest. Calling that bunch of Bozo's Vikings is an insult to my Norwegian ancesters. If that doesn't work I can always get some shyster lawyer and sue.

_________________
God and the Soldier we all adore,
In times of trouble and then no more
when war is over and all things righted
God is forgotten, the old soldier Slighted.

Catfish, there are negative and positive stereotypes. For example, black individuals may be stereotyped as "all stupid" in a negative light, or all "great at basketball" in a positive light. It's still insulting. Granted, our team's name isn't specifically Native American in reference, but saying that all Native Americans are strong warriors is just insulting since that implied that every Native American must live up to that standard.

How about instead of whining about why we can't get our way ("it's TRADITION! WAH!"), we open up to the idea of having a name that doesn't disrespect a very important portion of our population? Or are we still stuck in the mindset that "they're a minor amount of people, they won't care"?

Quote: (all "great at basketball" in a positive light.)

Wow Haley, you are one of the ones. I do know the difference between positive and negative and the Tomahawk "Hatchets" aren't negative.

quote:(all Native Americans are strong warriors is just insulting since that implied that every Native American must live up to that standard.)

Are you saying that all blacks must live up to the standard of being great in basketball? Yes you did. You said that was positive. You are also saying that our "Hatchets" have a name that is disrepectful of an important portion of our population. Where do you get this disrespect thing?
Even though I believe we are not disrepecting the Indians by calling our team the "Hatchets", I do believe as well that you would be happy that the "sunfish" wouldn't care. You are revealing you are one of those that believe Tomahawk and the other schools should be changing their mascot names. Have you ever heard of 'fascism'? Can you say, 'fascist'?

For pete's sake, we have our military members being killed almost daily in Iraq, 70,000 + people died a few months ago in Pakistan from an earthquake and thousands are expected to die from the bitter cold there, a tsunami killed over 200,000 people, and on and on. There are plenty of things requiring our involvement and actions. Changing the logo of THS isn't one of those. I grew up in NY, my father called his short handled axe a hatchet. It was nothing deragatory, it simply is what you call such an axe. Didn't Tomahawk develop around the logging industry? Weren't most early loggers French? So why wouldn't hatchet be an OK logo?

I'm Irish and I think I will file a complaint with Notre Dame and demand they stop calling themselves the Fighting Irish. After all most Irish are peaceful people.Why should we be called the Fighting Irish? It's just plain wrong I tell you

_________________
Nell

More women die of lung cancer than breast cancer. If you smoke, quit. If you don't, don't start.

Friends never lets friends drive drunk.

And what about the Indian heads on the Tomahawk squad cars?

Fascist! I said it! Are you proud? Let's just name our basketball team the Fightin' Cottonpickers while we're at it! Obviously, all the descendents of slaves are proud of their ancestors' endurance in the fields. Geez. Who needs government control in a state-funded institution, anyway?

Are you saying that all blacks must live up to the standard of being great in basketball? Yes you did.

Excusez-moi? Read what I typed over once more. It's an analogy.

People here are actually saying that Native Americans should be thankful that we're using the hatchet, since it somehow (and I really don't understand this line of thinking, but whatever) implies that they are all, as a group, strong and honorable (completely ignoring the fact that there are thousands of native tribes of distinct cultural practices).
...Along that line of thinking, the same person also might believe that, for example, Asian individuals are all good at mathematics.

I am not saying that it is the case, as you seem to have misunderstood. My point is, a positive stereotype is still a stereotype. Get it?

What, may I ask, do you think of the name of the Washington Redskins? You don't percieve that as racist at all? Gee, let's ask the brown or the yellow people and see what they think!

Perhaps, just perhaps, this might be a reason why we should think twice about dumbing down an important group of people with a proud heritage to a lame, high-school football team. You said this: "That would be detracting your team and it's image". Have you ever thought about how a Native American might feel? That maybe naming a football team after his or her cultural background might detract from their background or their image?

Regarding revealing myself to be "one of those people", you're exactly the type of person I would expect to be gung-ho about saving the football team name (forget the whales or the rainforests!). Wow. You combat any thought that might quite possibly contrast your opinion. I am not one of "those people". I just like to permit myself to have a critical perspective of the world. Perhaps you would benefit from trying the same.

<small>[ January 04, 2006, 09:45 PM: Message edited by: Haley ]</small>

Get a life.

Calling a team the Hatchets is not derogatory to any group of people. (Unless you want to say that calling Tomahawk's teams "The Hatchets" makes them feel inferior to a team called the "Axes")

_________________
What if there were no hypothetical questions?

Oh, and regarding the Fighting Irish and the Vikings:

Notre Dame was founded by Irish Catholics. They self-identified their team with the name Fighting Irish. (Their mascot is a leprechaun, a non-existant mythological figure.)

Minnesota is the home to a large Scandinavian population, who chose to self-identify its football team with the name of the Vikings. (Vikings are a historical group that do not exist today.)

Surely you do not think the Native Americans were the ones who chose the Redskins, the Seminoles, the Braves, the Chiefs... Heck, the namesakes for some of these teams were the ones pushed out of the way by those who DID define those names!

Not only that, but Native Americans live and exist today! They are not mythological, they are not a lost historical group, they are a people rich with culture and tradition, just like you! This is one of the most pervasive forms of racism in our society and some of you wave it off, saying that our teams might lose their image, of all things!

Like I said, this may or may not apply to the Hatchets. However, I don't understand why so many people do not think this is racism at its very core.

<small>[ January 04, 2006, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: Haley ]</small>

It wasn't long ago we were chanting and doing the "Tomahawk Chop" at our football games. Do you percieve that as appropriate?

The Tomahawk Hatchets have been the Hatchets forever. How could anyone think of changing it's name now, other than being part of a new group of people nation wide that persevere in "political correctness", like the same people that don't want us to say "Merry Christmas" anymore. What about the alumni who were proud Hatchets? What about all those trophies in the hallway cases that bear the name Hatchets? Would we throw them out or replace them? I would hope some politically correct snob would foot that bill.

Webster says that "fascism is a system of government based on doctrines characterized by strong nationalist, racist and military policies, and by dictatorship, regulation of news, suppression of opposition, and centralized governmental control over industry."

What we are witnessing here is "yellow fascism", which is now the "politically correct" snobs. Years ago, back in the Madison hippy college days, the "red fascists" were referred to as the "capitalist pigs" which I now would affectionately call an entrepeneur. I understand the red fascists, but it's these yellow fascists that want to take away the schools logos and mascots. Merry Christmas Hatchets, there, I said it.

And by the way Haley, in your Jan.4th-9:36 P.M. post, did you call the Hatchets a "lame, high school football team". I personally, and I'm sure most involved with this thread, take great offense at that statement. How dare you belittle the efforts and hard work of these boys. Winning every game isn't everything. If you like to play football, you played football whether you won or lost. Why would you call them lame?

AMEN! I'm with you Nell!

Haley, you apparently have no sense of humor. I was being facetious about the Fighting Irish. And as for the wee folk being non-existent you are obviously a non believer. I travel to Ireland yearly, the wee folk exist, esp in the west of the country.

The Vikings in a sense do exist today, they were the ancestors of current day Swedes, Norwegians, and Danes. Those of us with Scandanavian, English, Scotch, or Irish blood no doubt have some Viking blood also.

_________________
Nell

More women die of lung cancer than breast cancer. If you smoke, quit. If you don't, don't start.

Friends never lets friends drive drunk.

Haley, you might try to develop a little sense of humor, it will serve you well when you are diagnosed with cancer. Were it not for my sense of humor I might as well call Kevorkian today.

_________________
Nell

More women die of lung cancer than breast cancer. If you smoke, quit. If you don't, don't start.

Friends never lets friends drive drunk.

If you're so ambivalent over the name thing, then why do you take such a strong stance against it? It confuses me big time. Forget your darling Hatches for five minutes. Why aren't you all addressing what I said about racism in team names?

It is a high school football team. It figures that people in Tomahawk would dismiss racism in the name of a pasttime that frankly is less important than getting a decent education, but apparently that point is lost on you since you're, well, still living in Tomahawk cheering on a bunch of kids running around with a ball. My apologies. Oops, there goes my sense of humor again. Joking about uneducated lower-class people. I suppose it's less damaging than joking about how someone should die.

<small>[ January 05, 2006, 10:02 AM: Message edited by: Haley ]</small>

Haley, to whom are you addressing this? For the record, I grew up on the east coast. At the age of 35 I moved to Tomahawk, I lived there 9 years, I left in 1989. According to your profile you live in Tomahawk.

I do not like football, I only watched the Cretin Derham Raiders, #1 in MN at the time, for 4 years because my son played and as a Mom I needed to be there to support my son and his team. I have never seen a THS football game. My daughter however was probably the best swimmer THS ever had. I seldom missed a swim meet, her letter jacket has a hatchet on it. She graduated from college with a 4.0 so I think it's safe to say the most THS athletes do care about academics in addition to sports. A balanced student has a place in his/her life for both athletics and academics.

As for not addressing racism that wasn't the topic of the opening post and thread, it was over the use of the hatchet as a school logo. Open a separate thread about racism. As the Mom of 2 non white sons I'll be glad to contribute.

Who are the uneducated lower class people you are talking about?

As for joking about death my point is that when you are facing death if you don't have a sense of humor you might as well give up. I have two different primary cancers and right now am dealing with a tumor in my lung and 7 in my liver, are they breast cancer or melanoma? We do not know yetbut hope to know soon. In May I was critically ill in ICU and given a 50% chance of survival.I know what it is to face death and mortality, believe me a sense of humor is needed.

_________________
Nell

More women die of lung cancer than breast cancer. If you smoke, quit. If you don't, don't start.

Friends never lets friends drive drunk.

Haley,

Slow down and think a little...

NurseNell was telling you a sense of humor will help if something bad happens (much like what she is going through).

Tell me just once what a Hatchet has to do with any Native American? I have a hatchet in my truck, we have one at each cabin, etc. We use them all the time. I have some Native American heritage (not much) but I know lots of people that use hatchets all the time...

If they want to complain about a name they should ask us to change TOMAHAWK.

Also, no offense but I doubt you are that much more educated than MANY of the other people on this board!

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by NurseNell:
For pete's sake, we have our military members being killed almost daily in Iraq, 70,000 + people died a few months ago in Pakistan from an earthquake and thousands are expected to die from the bitter cold there, a tsunami killed over 200,000 people, and on and on. There are plenty of things requiring our involvement and actions. Changing the logo of THS isn't one of those.
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AMEN! I'm with you Nell!

To NurseNell and Aphephilia, this isn't just the Hatchet thing or the Merry Christmas thing, this is just a small part of a very large situation of the eroding of our rights. This particular part is the political correctness group. This will fester into full blown Orwellianism.(is that a word?) How long will it be before we all have 'telescreens' in place in our homes for Big Brother to monitor. The "Inner Party" the "Party" and the "Proletariat". (1984 George Orwell) "Inner Party"-those in government office. The "Party"-anyone that works for the government, i.e. postal workers, social workers, S.S. administrators, etc.. The "Proletariat"-the mindless, brainwashed, Brave New World clones, bred for mediocrity as worker drones.
Sheeple, get some legs and stand up.

What I get the biggest kick out of is the people making the most fuss have nothing to do with being native american. Check with the Florida State Seminole's, guess which tribe helped them with their costumes that they wear during the games. Yup your right, The Seminol tribe. I have talked to many native americans about this and they think the whole thing is a big joke. The whites are more bothered by it than they are. Sure there may be a few that find some reason to take offense but they are in the very small minority.

By the way, since when did the Vikings cease to exist ? I am Norwegian and I take offense in people saying my ancesters and I don't exist. We may not go out raiding like my older ancesters did but we still exist and we are not mythological.

<small>[ January 05, 2006, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: Old Scout ]</small>

_________________
God and the Soldier we all adore,
In times of trouble and then no more
when war is over and all things righted
God is forgotten, the old soldier Slighted.

Of course the Vikings still exist. Haven't you seen them on the Capital One credit card commercials?

As Kerry Tobin said (I cant believe I'm actually agreeing with him but) as he said, if any name should go due to racism it would be the name of Tomahawk, definitely not hatchet. If people such as Haley (just to name one of many) need a cause, there are plenty of valid causes out there. There are plenty of REAL racism issues to fight for. I was born and raised in Tomahawk and graduated from Tomahawk High School in 1979. The name Tomahawk Hatchets never made me hate Indians. I think a lot of this crap has to do with some WHITE people trying really hard to PROVE that they aren't racist. If you truly aren't racist, there is nothing to prove.

<small>[ January 05, 2006, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: aphephilia ]</small>