Community Calendar
Community
Calendar
Tomahawk Leader Internet Edition - Newspaper in Tomahawk Wisconsin Photo Album
Photo
Album
Map
Map of
Tomahawk, WI
Grey Bar
The Tomahawk Leader is a state and national prize-winning weekly newspaper serving the scenic Northwoods area in and around Tomahawk, WI.

It is currently Fri Nov 28, 2014 2:21 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 143 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 7:12 pm 
Offline
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 827
Location: Tomahawk
Has thanked: 24 times
Been thanked: 33 times
Tie to Tomahawk: Born, raised and live in Tomahawk
The whole purpose of our American system of checks and balances is to avoid having some subjective group, religion, or special interest impose their subjective, esoteric beliefs on our pluralistic, freedom optimizing nation.

I borrowed that from Dagger, I think that applies to this as well as the ban on gay marriage. :p

_________________
The National Institutes of Health has just released the results of a $200 million research study completed under a grant to Johns Hopkins.
The new study has found that women who carry a little extra weight live longer than the men who mention it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 10:06 am 
Offline
Contributor
Contributor
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:01 am
Posts: 188
Location: Tomahawk
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
Tie to Tomahawk: born in Tomahawk - family
written by Old Scout:
The whole purpose of our American system of checks and balances is to avoid having some subjective group, religion, or special interest impose their subjective, esoteric beliefs on our pluralistic, freedom optimizing nation.


that applies (in this case) both ways: smokers should not impose on non smokers rights either.. :)

<small>[ April 03, 2006, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: logic1 ]</small>


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 10:19 pm 
Offline
Contributor
Contributor

Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2002 2:01 am
Posts: 121
Location: Tomahawk
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
And neither smokers nor non-smokers should try to dictate to businesses how they are to be run. If you dont like the surroundings, go somewhere else. If the business owner decides to ban smoking and you don't like that, go somewhere else.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 11:44 pm 
Offline
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor

Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2001 2:01 am
Posts: 692
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
Tie to Tomahawk: vacation
Dave said exactly what I wanted to say last night before my internet connection crapped out & I was too lazy to reboot. I live in Appleton where they passed a no smoking ordinance in the last election. The bar owners have lost ~ 40 - 50% of their business since the surrounding communities still allow smoking. Layoffs & closings have resulted.

As a former smoker, I really have a low tolerance for second hand smoke, but I believe we don't need more regulations. Let the owner of the establishment pick their climate. Let the customers do the same.

_________________
What if there were no hypothetical questions?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 3:39 pm 
Offline
Beginner
Beginner

Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2003 1:01 am
Posts: 4
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
I normally would not reply to any of these posts, as I try to keep my opinions to myself rather then put them out there for others to argue about or ridicule. However, having read this entire post I must reply.

Yes, I am a smoker. While I don't usually like to admit that because I do know it is a disgusting "habit", I will admit it here. When I say it is a habit, I am not saying that anyone who smokes cannot quit - they can. I can and am getting closer to doing so after being a smoker for the past 17 years. With that being said, I would like to get to the point of businesses and how cities are now banning smoking. While my fiance's family runs a resort in Tomahawk and we live in Madison, we have learned first hand what the smoking ban has done to business. Many of the bars that have had the smoking ban here in Madison, are having trouble making ends meet. Many people are losing there jobs over it, families are losing money because of it.

Having said that, at the same time many will say business is booming in certain spots, I would say particularly in the downtown area of Madison. Many people did not want to go to the bars/restaraunts that had smoking before, due to second hand smoke etc... I don't blame them.

The businesses located just outside of Madison (such as Fitchburg, Middleton, Oregon etc...) do not have a smoking ban at this time. Some may pass it soon, however, those who smoke and no longer want to go to Madison establishments because they cannot smoke, can travel just a few miles down the road (in some spots a couple of blocks divides the city of madison with the city of Middleton) and smoke there. Otherwise, go outside if they "have" to smoke, which of course still brings fowl looks and comments from those non-smokers who have to walk through the cloud. But at the least, they got what they wanted - a smoke free inside.

Personally, as a smoker I am not against or for the smoking ban - however, I will go outside to smoke. The ban makes it so that we can no longer smoke inside, so what is the choice. If your walking by, I will do my best to NEVER blow smoke in another persons face, I have always tried to be courtious to others. I don't even smoke in my own home, I smoke outside. The ban has not stopped me from smoking - I had came to the conclusion that prior to the ban I would quit soon anyway. I also NEVER light up when people are eating, it is rude.

Let me get to the main point - smoking bans have good points and bad points. The good is that those who would like to have a pleasant evening out (dinner, etc...) can now do so with the smoking ban. They don't have to worry about second hand smoke or cancer etc... The bad points are that businesses can end up closing because of the lack of business. Employees can lose there jobs (and yes, I know they can lose there lives for working in a smoke zone).

Like I have said, I don't agree or disagree with the ban - I believe all the way around someone will get hurt with it or without it. But last time I checked it is a free country and we are free to do what we want (or so they would like us to believe). Should we be able to continue to do that? If I smoke, like I said, I barely ever light up in an establishment where others are eating. If I am in a bar where others are smoking, I will smoke - and I will try my best to keep the smoke I am smoking away from my friends etc... After all, they had the choice to pick the places we go to and if they pick a non-smoking choice, I don't whine about it. I don't know if this makes me an exception - but it is how I think about the whole issue. I understand the thoughts of illness etc... I know them first hand having had cancer run through my family, I watched it. Is it scaring me, yes!! Do I think we have the right to dictate others lives and businesses - No!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 3:42 pm 
Offline
Beginner
Beginner

Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2003 1:01 am
Posts: 4
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
And I wanted to add, that whether or not Tomahawk decides in the future to have a smoking ban as Rhinelander is thinking about, so be it. It isn't going to stop me from coming to my cabin as much as I possibly can or going out to eat at any of the fine places to eat in the area. I love Tomahawk and plan to grow old there :)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 3:59 pm 
Offline
Occasional Poster
Occasional Poster

Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2004 2:01 am
Posts: 16
Location: Tomahawk
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
Rather than passing rules and enlisting a dictatorship in this country why don't they just get rid of ciggerets outlaw them all together. But the thing is that won't happen because our politicians get to many kickbacks from them. Instead the stupid people will just allow themselves to be controlled more and more for no good reason.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 10:05 pm 
Offline
Administrator
Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 684
Location: Madison, WI, USA
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 16 times
Tie to Tomahawk: I grew up there & family
Spambot: No
Just to add some comments about Appleton (where I also live).

First, SOME bars are claiming to lose that much business and from what I understand ONE bar has closed and it wasn't doing well before the ban. On the other hand at least one bar has pointed out that they are doing better because they did something amazing. They took the time to adapt to the ban and advertised it as a feature! Realizing that 80% of people don't smoke and that a good percentage of those people may actually choose to avoid smoking the bars are in a pickle at the moment. If they would actively pursue some of the people who would never have gone out in the past because of the smoke there is a reasonable chance they could grow their business. On the other hand most of the bars have spent a good amount of money promoting a new referendum to overturn the ban (which failed today) and complaining rather than trying to improve their business. Others have actively ignored the ban, blocked police from entering the building (not a good idea), etc.

Another problem with believing the claimed loses is that to many businesses like bars are run "out of the till" and couldn't accurately tell you how things are compare to last week much less last year. They are also failing to take into account other business that have opened (for example new restaurants, etc.) in the area that are drawing business away from them. A new bar opened on College Ave a few weeks ago and I'm sure if one or two smaller bars close they will claim it was due to the smoking ban. I couldn't possibly have anything to do with a brand new, clean, fresh two story bar that can hold something like 600 people opening three doors down...

Finally, if you talk to some of the bar owners they'll quietly admit (off the record) that they actually like the ban but they publicly supported the referendum. I've heard a few of them talk about how nice it is to come home from work and not smell badly, to not have to breath it in at work, etc. Heck, a bartender made an anonymous donation to the group trying to keep the smoking ban in place. The bartenders are supposedly the ones who are losing so much money in tips and hours...

The bars that choose to take action and adapt to the new business environment will do just fine (much like any other situation). A few of them will get smart and decide to do some minor remodeling like other bars I've been to in cities that don't allow smoking (add a "beer garden" or recessed entrance with tables, etc.). Or they'll put a little effort into attracting some new people too. The smokers are still there (most of the bars I go to are just as busy as ever), they just step outside for their fix.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 11:19 pm 
Offline
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor

Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2001 2:01 am
Posts: 692
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
Tie to Tomahawk: vacation
Why do we need more legislation??

What's wrong with the bar/restaraunt owner making their own decision to be smoke free or not AND the clients deciding if they want to drink or eat in a smoke free establishment? Terry & friends could choose to go to a smoke free bar or go to a smoke free party. Folks that smoke would have the same choices that favors their life style.

Same goes for the employees of the establishments. They can decide which environment they wish in which to work.

<small>[ April 04, 2006, 11:23 PM: Message edited by: Jeff Boettcher ]</small>

_________________
What if there were no hypothetical questions?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:19 am 
Offline
Administrator
Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 684
Location: Madison, WI, USA
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 16 times
Tie to Tomahawk: I grew up there & family
Spambot: No
Main problem is that before the smoking ban in Appleton I can't think of a SINGLE smoke free bar.

The other big consideration is the employees. Ya, I hear everyone saying get a different job... Here's my question, if you're working at a bar how many other jobs that pay that well are available? Do you know of many non-smoking bars that those bartenders could go get jobs at? Got a suggestion of another line of work for them?

I know some bartenders that make a pretty good wage (considering anyway) at work. Some of them might not be paying their way through school on less. Telling them to go get a job at McDonald's isn't really an option...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:55 am 
Offline
Contributor
Contributor

Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2002 2:01 am
Posts: 121
Location: Tomahawk
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
So, let's get this straight. Someone gets a job as a bartender/waiter/cook/whatever in an establishment that allows smoking. The individual knew before he/she took the job that smoking was allowed in the business and that they would be exposed to it if they wrok there. Now that this individual has the job, he/she wants to use the legal system to change the environment that they agreed to work in at the expense of the business itself and the business owners rights. I know that this makes perfect sense to every liberal in the crowd, but it is all Penn & Teller to me. Now that the people of Rhinelander have spoken I wonder how long it will take before we see this exact same question on yet another referendum?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 6:43 am 
Offline
Contributor
Contributor

Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2002 1:01 am
Posts: 157
Location: Tomahawk
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
Even if a place goes smoke free, I must still walk through the cloud of smoke at the entrance or smell the ashtry at the entrance, before I go in. Thanks for sharing your smoke, you inconsiderate B*****ds!!!! Smokers, try something new, it is now called "UNcommen coutesy," hold your breath after you inhale!!!! Better yet why not suck on the barrel of a gun with you finger on the trigger and save my tax dollars from all the medical expenses smokers create for themselves and all the people you slowly kill with second hand smoke.

_________________
Spay or nueter your pets!!!!!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 7:12 am 
Offline
Contributor
Contributor

Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 349
Location: Wausau
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
Quote:
Originally posted by nugget:
Even if a place goes smoke free, I must still walk through the cloud of smoke at the entrance or smell the ashtry at the entrance, before I go in. Thanks for sharing your smoke, you inconsiderate B*****ds!!!! Smokers, try something new, it is now called "UNcommen coutesy," hold your breath after you inhale!!!! Better yet why not suck on the barrel of a gun with you finger on the trigger and save my tax dollars from all the medical expenses smokers create for themselves and all the people you slowly kill with second hand smoke.
WOW, such venom!!! If I didn't know better, I would say you need to have a cigarette!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 7:24 am 
Offline
Administrator
Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 684
Location: Madison, WI, USA
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 16 times
Tie to Tomahawk: I grew up there & family
Spambot: No
The ban has been in effect since July in Appleton. It may have been someone like me who looked at trying to get a job at one of the bars downtown to make some extra money after the ban was in place (I wouldn't have done it otherwise) and wanted to help make sure it didn't go back the other way (I would have quit if I had done it).

Either way, it was someone who was going to be on the side that is supposedly losing money...

Also, the Post-Crescent had an article on the website this morning talking about a business organization telling downtown businesses they need to drop the animosity and start adapting to the ban. The two bar/restaraunts that have taken this approach are doing better than they were before the ban went into place...

My favorite quote is from a bar owner who as been leading the charge to overturn the ban. He's claiming he was going to open another bar downtown but now he'll have to open it outside Appleton because of the ban. He also said his current business will not be affected by the ban. The funny part is that this is the same clown that was on TV commercials saying the ban was going to put every bar downtown out of business (now he says it won't affect his current location?). Also, there is a a long waiting list for liquor licenses in Appleton (could be a hint that we have too many bars already). This guy wouldn't be able to open his new bar in Appleton for years anyway because he wouldn't be able to get a license (laws limit the numbers available). Hmm, any chance he's going to open it outside the city so he can actually do it within the next 5 years?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 8:54 am 
Offline
Contributor
Contributor

Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2002 1:01 am
Posts: 157
Location: Tomahawk
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
The only way I would touch a cancer stick is to place/shove it in an orifice other then someones mouth. I am just sick of the STUPIDITY of smokers and their inconsiderate actions. I was always taught to treat others as I would like to be treated until they prove otherwise, then treat them the same way they treat you. I will NOT slowly kill someone else and hide behind the "You are forcing me to do something I do not want to do because you do not want to share my smoke." I have not forced any one to breath air with out cig. smoke, but I am forced to smell and breath smokers crap!!!! Every single day, I have to smell the stench because 99% of smokers are only concerned with their next fix. They claim it is their right to slowly kill everyone around them. I will always fight to be able to breath air without smoke. In my mind it is not a rights issue it is a HEALTH issue.

_________________
Spay or nueter your pets!!!!!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 10:40 am 
Offline
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 827
Location: Tomahawk
Has thanked: 24 times
Been thanked: 33 times
Tie to Tomahawk: Born, raised and live in Tomahawk
Well Nugget, you have a right to your opinion, but opinions are like A** ****s everyone has one and they all stink. :p

_________________
The National Institutes of Health has just released the results of a $200 million research study completed under a grant to Johns Hopkins.
The new study has found that women who carry a little extra weight live longer than the men who mention it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:59 pm 
Offline
Contributor
Contributor

Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2002 1:01 am
Posts: 157
Location: Tomahawk
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
Yea, old scout, I can finally say "I almost agree with you" I never thought I would be able to say that to YOU! :p Mine may stink but at least I can still breath. Sometimes even without cig. smoke.

_________________
Spay or nueter your pets!!!!!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 3:57 pm 
Offline
Contributor
Contributor
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:01 am
Posts: 188
Location: Tomahawk
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
Tie to Tomahawk: born in Tomahawk - family
Nugget, I do agree with you that smoking is just plain inconsiderate., but I do think you are going over board saying "suck on a gun barrel..." that is extreme. I really don't think you want ANYONE to kill themselves (they are doing it anyway with the smoking). Dave---it's not that the Rhinelander public had their say, you know darn well that the majority of people that did vote on the "advisory" issue are smokers. No matter how you want to "see" it smoking is a nusiance & will eventually be banned in eating establishments (if not in all public places) It will take more time, but it will happen. ;)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:51 am 
Offline
Contributor
Contributor

Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2002 1:01 am
Posts: 157
Location: Tomahawk
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
I DO NOT care if someone kills themselves. If they would use a gun it would cost so much less (money and emotion) then when they get cancer and then try to fight it. Everyone around that person with SELF inflicted cancer suffer also. All the people who have to breath second hand smoke would not have to breath it and become ill, and then spend more money to try and fight cancer that someone else so thoughfully :roll: gave them with second hand smoke. I have been involved in a second hand smoke cancer death, the pain and suffering it caused was not only to the person with cancer, everyone in the family and the friends suffer. It is a long slow Painful death.

_________________
Spay or nueter your pets!!!!!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 12:41 am 
Offline
Contributor
Contributor

Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 1:01 am
Posts: 112
Location: Wait.... where am I?
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
The individual business owner should have the final say in whether or not they wish to have a smoke-free environment.

_________________
The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese....


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 12:35 pm 
Offline
Typical Poster
Typical Poster

Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:01 am
Posts: 92
Location: Midwest, USA
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
I think the argument of "lost business" is very mislieading. Are the proponents of this assertion actually saying Wisconsinites have given up eating? It was a warm day in WI yesterday and you can now see more of the actual shape of people (like it or not) and I did not see any evidence of lost business in the food industry. One businesse's loss is likely another's gain or perhaps people are eating at home. I suspect the suppression of smoking is "lost business" for the tobacco companies. It might be a question of priorities: making money or people's health.

_________________
90% of people are caused by accidents.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 12:50 pm 
Offline
Administrator
Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 684
Location: Madison, WI, USA
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 16 times
Tie to Tomahawk: I grew up there & family
Spambot: No
I think the following article hits the nail on the head!

Smoking ban is really about worker safety
Enough already. Please. Don't make me beg. For the 1,486,529th time, smoking bans are not about being pro-business or anti-business. Anti-ban proponents keep painting this picture, and it's driving me nuts.

To see the rest of the column visit the link.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 2:34 pm 
Offline
Contributor
Contributor
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:01 am
Posts: 188
Location: Tomahawk
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
Tie to Tomahawk: born in Tomahawk - family
Everyone on this board needs to read this article, it is awesome! Kerry, thank you for the post- MUST READ INFO!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:54 pm 
Offline
Contributor
Contributor

Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2002 2:01 am
Posts: 121
Location: Tomahawk
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
Sorry to keep driving you nuts, but the issue really is the rights of business owners. You can claim a couple million times that it is not, but that does not change the reality of what is going on here. Being obtuse about it will not change the fact that what is being proposed, at base level, is yet another move to tell business owners what they can and cannot do. We have enough of that already and don't need any more. Non-smokers and those others who do not want to be exposed have a number of available alternatives.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:34 pm 
Offline
Administrator
Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 684
Location: Madison, WI, USA
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 16 times
Tie to Tomahawk: I grew up there & family
Spambot: No
So Dave,

If I can get a great deal on Asbestos based materials I should use those to build or remodel my new business.

If I can get a great deal on cleaning materials made from chemicals known to cause cancer if not properly used I should buy those, use them and not post any material on how to safely use them?

I can get a great deal on mechanical equipment that has all the safety gear like a roll-bar, backup buzzer, seat belt, etc. removed I should buy it?

Heck, I'll open a trucking company. I'm going to make a fortune because I should have the right to choose whether to follow the speed limit. I'll deliver in less time than anyone else.

It's about the business owners rights isn't it? Everyone would have alternatives to not use my business wouldn't they?

As my professor told us years ago, regulations on businesses are almost always due to the fact that they fail to do the right thing on their own.

<small>[ April 11, 2006, 07:37 PM: Message edited by: Kerry Tobin ]</small>


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 143 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
POWERED_BY
Localized by Maël Soucaze © 2010 phpBB.fr