Just for baby

[Deb Richardson]

aphephilia, you are to be commended on your conviction to your faith.

As I was once told by a long time Catholic and someone who had studied their faith, those outside of the Catholic faith are more aware than those inside the faith. Yes, aphephilia it is the Catholic church that denies Holy Communion by saying that certain sins are beyond forgiveness, by denying those people that have committed that sin. However, if you conform to their doctrine then you may once again partake. Annul a marriage or reverse a tubal ligation, then you are back in good graces with the Catholic church and once again your soul can be saved. Although the Catholic church denies you the right to Holy Communion they don't bother to not take that weekly offering as the plate is passed. Heaven forbide the biggest sin of all and not have a marriage blessed by a Catholic preist, although married in church by a clergyman. This happened with my husband. In some parishes this is no longer an issue, it was 30 years ago. My husband and myself were denied communion at a mass celebrating the 50th wedding anniversary of his grandparents. Apparently a well meaning aunt felt it was her responisiblity to talk with the parish priest about our wedding. In the eyes of the Catholic church we were living in sin. Being young and not wanting to cause a problem for grandma and grandpa I held my peace. Ten years later when they celebrated their 60th. with a celebration mass my husband and I quietly joined the others for communion. Needless to say my husband left the Catholic church years ago. So aphephilia, maybe you can understand why I am bitter toward the Catholic church.

I was once told by a friend that attended church regularly, although denied the sacrament due to divorce, she would raise her daughter Catholic because that was all that she knew and it was comfortable. I can relate to that, being Lutheran my entire life having a church and a church family is comforting. I don't agree with everything within the Lutheran church. Heck, the Lutherans don't even agree, look at the different synods which all have different doctrines. I guess my biggest beef with the Catholic church, any church, is the denial of the sacrament. To me it's saying your sin is too big to be forgiven. Yes it is denial.

[aphephilia]

The Catholic Church never says there are sins beyond forgiveness, that is pure hogwash. I will pray for whoever told you that nonesense. All one has to do is reconcile throught the Sacrament of Reconciliation if they are in a state of mortal sin. Being in a state of mortal sin is the only thing that will exclude a person from Holy Communion and there is a reason for that which is entirely biblically based. This is all Biblically based. The Bible says that those who partake of Holy Communion unworthily are guilty of the Body and Blood of the Lord (I Corinthians 11:27; read verses 17-34 for the whole context). This is why the Church forbids those in a state of mortal sin to receive. It is not so much a punishment as an act of protection, since Saint Paul says that those who communicate unworthily eat and drink judgment to themselves (vs 29), and he even insinuates that this could in some cases cause illness or death (vs 30)! The Eucharist is the Sacrament of our unity in Christ. Those who receive it must have unity in the Faith. Those who are not in unity cannot receive.

[aphephilia]

Just one more thing; there are many many denominations that have closed communion, not just the Catholic Church. The policy of a "closed Communion" is nothing new; in fact it goes back to the earliest Christians. The Didache, a book of Church discipline dating back to the late first century A.D., clearly states that only Christians can receive the Eucharist:

"But let no one eat or drink of this eucharistic thanksgiving, but they that have been baptized into the name of the Lord". -Didache 9:10-12
So the concept of a closed Communion goes all the way back to the Church of Apostolic times!. Those churches which observe it today are merely being faithful to the practice of the earliest Christians.

[Deb Richardson]

Biblically based you say aph, hmm I guess an interrprutation based on the doctrine of the Catholic church. You state from your book of Didache, not used in the Bible utilized by the Protestant churches, doesn't really support your defense. I think it's great that more churches choose to have open communion than those that don't. To me closing communion means that a church is hoping to serve a select few and not willing to include those that are in great need of the promise of salvation. I don't believe it was the intent of Jesus at the Last Supper to deny anyone, as you said yourself even Judas.

[aphephilia]

Ah yes, BUT, He didn't invite the entire city now did He? Only the 12 and his Mother of course.

[NurseNell]

Originally posted by Deb Richardson:
I was once told by a long time Catholic and someone who had studied their faith, those outside of the Catholic faith are more aware than those inside the faith. Yes, aphephilia it is the Catholic church that denies Holy Communion by saying that certain sins are beyond forgiveness

Sorry Deb, this is totally incorrect. The reason non-Catholics cannot receive communion in the Roman Catholic Church is because the Catholic faith teaches that communion becomes the body and blood of Christ. Non-Catholic chirches believe communion is a remembrance but doesn't become the body and blood of Çhrist.

Any and all sins can be forgiven.

I would not even consider taking communion in any church but the Catholic church because I know I believe something different. My cousin is a Lutheran pastor, I have been to many Lutheran services but I don't take communion. I don't think a non-Catholic going to a Catholic Mass needs to go to communion anymore than I think Catholics need to take communion in other churches.

[NurseNell]

Originally posted by Deb Richardson:
I was once told by a friend that attended church regularly, although denied the sacrament due to divorce

Deb, this is another incorrect understanding of Catholic doctrine. A divorced person may receive communion. I know, I am divorced and am in good standing with the Catholic Church. Now a divorced person who has remarried outside the church or who is living with someone as if married cannot receive communion. A divorced person who has received a declaration of nullity, in which it is determined that a sacramental marriage did not occur, is free to remarry and receive communion. A divorced person who does not have such a declaration is still considered married in the eyes of the Church. As long as they are celibate they certainly may receive communion.

[NurseNell]

Originally posted by aphephilia:
If I may suggest a really good book by Dr. Alan Schreck. It's entitled, Catholic and Christian, an Explanation of Commonly Misunderstood Catholic Beliefs.

Oh Aphephilia, it's much more fun to hold on to misconceptions than to learn what things really mean.

[sagan]

I'm with Bertrand Russell on this topic.

[Haley]

Ditto. Here's a good essay.

[aphephilia]

Deb, here are two statements from two different Lutheran synods on the topic of closed communion.
http://www.poemels.org/tracts/closecommunion.html
http://www.hopelcms.org/faqs/communion.htm

Another article written by a Lutheran pastor on the topic which contains quotes from Luther himself:
http://www.ourredeemerlcms.org/The%20Biblical%20Practice%20of%20Closed%20Communion.pdf

[sagan]

Of course christians used to kill each other over issues such as the profession, "that communion becomes the body and blood of Christ."

I can imagine the catholic grade school banter on this. While strolling back from communion, Spike whispers to his friend, "Hey Joey, did you get a piece of nose or foot this time?"

[NurseNell]

Originally posted by Broca:
I can imagine the catholic grade school banter on this. While strolling back from communion, Spike whispers to his friend, "Hey Joey, did you get a piece of nose or foot this time?"

You know Broca, we are all free to believe what we want. You mentioned Bertrand Russell earlier. I have read his books. He taught at my mother's college. He may be an agnostic but he respected the beliefs of others. You could learn from his example.

[aphephilia]

Nell, he just gave us a fine example of a profession of ignorance.

[NurseNell]

Aphephilia, check your private mail.

I guess it's OK to be anti-Catholic here. And no Deb, I'm not talking about you. You may not understand Catholic beliefs but you are respectful.

[aphephilia]

checked it and responded Nell.
Hey Nell, did you see we have another Nel on the board?

[NurseNell]

Originally posted by aphephilia:

Hey Nell, did you see we have another Nel on the board?

LOL, I did notice that. Curious minds want to know who she/he is.

[aphephilia]

maybe a NurseNell impersonator???

[mystic]

This thread is proof of evolution.

On April 27th this will be on Wisconsin Public Televison.

11:00 pm Nova
"Ancient Refuge in the Holy Land"
In a gloomy cave perched high in a canyon near the Dead Sea, archaeologists made a startling discovery in 1960: a bag containing letters written on papyrus nearly 2,000 years ago. The letters were written by one of the great figures of Jewish history, the rebel Bar-Kokhba, who led a heroic guerilla uprising against the Romans. Biblical scholar Richard Freund returns to the cave with the latest archaeological techniques, hoping to find more traces of Bar-Kokhba's epic struggle. Instead, Freund comes up with tantalizing new finds that lead him to a radical and controversial theory. Could the treasure concealed in the cave be a long-lost relic of the great temple in Jerusalem destroyed by the Romans? NOVA joins Freund in a fascinating detective hunt that plunges him into the heated scholarly debates of Biblical archaeology.
http://www.wpt.org/whats_on/index.cfm?channel=15&mo=4&dy=27&yr=2005

[Catfish]

The Pope, this year his name is Kasinsky, next year he'll be Rabinovitz. This is a holy father that originally vowed a life of poverty but now lives like a very rich, servanted bachelor. Yes, I was brought up Catholic. Eight years of High Mass six days a week. Yea, I'm guilty. That's what they taught us.

[Marty]

So, whether you are Catholic, Protestant, Lutheran, Methodist, or whatever, the real question is - after living thru all the religous stuff that was jammed down your throats as children, how is your relationship with God? And that's all He cares about.

[tinman]

Bingo, Marty!!! Thanks for putting that in such a short, succinct way. Ritual and tradition are fine if that is what you prefer, but there is nothing more important than a personal relationship with God. And nothing more fulfilling.

[aphephilia]

Ritual and Tradition only serve to enhance one's relationship with God. It is mentioned in the Bible to not depend on Scripture alone, but in tradition as well.

[Deb Richardson]

Right you are aph, ritual and tradition really do enhance your relationship with God. I guess, although I love contemporary services, I still come away feeling the most uplifted and fullfilled after a traditional service. I have much I would like to add to many of the responses, but I'm too tired tonight and I have a knitting project to finish.

[Jeff Boettcher]

Talk about a major tangent! Maybe the TL Message board should just have a permanent folder labelled miscellaneous??

Ya all have just taken an great, original slam by TenaciousT on this thread concerning Baby's tendency to ramble aimlessly off topic and acted exactly the same as she does on this board. Catholic beliefs sound like a different thread to me.

<small>[ April 27, 2005, 11:03 PM: Message edited by: Jeff Boettcher ]</small>