Umm....... yes?

_________________
The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese....

Whoosh, the point seems to go right over someone's head...

Lets try it this way. I'm going to open a junk yard, I'm going to buy the lots on all three sides of the cabin/home on the lake you just bought. I'm going to cut down every tree and make sure I put the more toxic stuff right on the border of your property. I'm mean hey, it's my right as a business owner to do that even though the land is zoned residential isn't it? Oh, and don't mind the green ooze draining into the water (it's my right remember), nothing to see here... I mean really, you can always take your stuff to someone else's junk yard!

Well, in such a case what you were doing would be illegal.

(don't misunderstand.. I GET what you're saying.)

_________________
The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese....

Yes, but what makes it illegal and why should it be?

It's illegal because it is hazardous to others, it's dangerous to my employees, myself and anyone else.

It's illegal because the people decided no one should be able to do it...

Maybe you should go and open a junk yard and quit trying to dominate the message board with your foolish what ifs. As I said before, you have a right to your opinion and everyone else has a right to theirs. That doesn't make yours the right one. Have you ever wondered why so many business are moving overseas. Besides the money side there is also the fact that they are so regulated by all the do-gooders that want everything to fit their idea of a perfect world that no business owner has any rights. At the rate we are going, it won't be long before we qualify as a third world country and are looking for forign aid from China.

"It's illegal because the people ""Kerry, lets clarify this a bit, it should say "few people""" decided no one should be able to do it... "

<small>[ April 12, 2006, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: Old Scout ]</small>

_________________
God and the Soldier we all adore,
In times of trouble and then no more
when war is over and all things righted
God is forgotten, the old soldier Slighted.

well Old Scout, I do not believe Kerry is dominating the message board......... his opinions are as welcome as anyones---including yours. We all listen to your ramblings too Maybe you are just upset because you seem to be in the minority with your views. Maybe not the minority of this board in particular, but universal.

Kerry your analogy was quite good. Laws however are made by the majority of the minority. Most Americans do not vote. Trying to persaude someone into changeing their minds is not a bad thing, it is natural. If all the non smokers in the Rhinelander area would have actually voted, it would be a whole new thread. I would have spent more time and money there, as it is though I think I will just stay home and keep my money. It was made quite clear, the city of rhinelander, does not want my time or money.

_________________
Spay or nueter your pets!!!!!!!

Perhaps the way they see it, the city of Rhinelander makes more of a profit from smokers.. who knows.
Either way, in the case of Bars, I stand by my opinion that it should be the choice of the individual owners to decide.

_________________
The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese....

I find this amazing. If it is anything at all politically correct (gay marriage), then it always MUST be "anything goes and you are not allowed to disagree with it", but if it is not politically correct (in this case, allowing smokers to smoke is nonpolitically correct) you must not even breathe a word of it or you are immediately persona non grata. Insulting one's sense of comfort or personal selfish desires is considered a greater affront than some things that ARE really hurtful to others.

What if I am uncomfortable being around a person with AIDS, can we ban that too? This is too much. I know perfectly wonderful people who smoke and have stable marriages and are mild-mannered. I know plenty more who are gay or drug-addicted or social drinkers or gamblers, etc. who are jerks towards others than those who smoke. And as for secondhand smoke, I get sicker from car exhaust, gas fumes, race track/road construction dust, super-loud rock concerts in my neighborhood, laundromats, incense and marijuana (I am allergic to both! But not cigarette smoke.), from drinking alcohol (even a little makes me barf), most greenhouses (again, allergies) and the perfume and cleaning aisles at Wal-Mart.

It's all very simple, really:

A 'racist' is anyone who disagrees with a liberal.

A homophobe is anyone who disagrees with a gay.

And a misogynist/women hater/male chauvinist is anyone who disagrees with a feminist.

_________________
God and the Soldier we all adore,
In times of trouble and then no more
when war is over and all things righted
God is forgotten, the old soldier Slighted.

I am allergic to marijuana, does that mean I can sue anyone who blows marijuana smoke in my face if it becomes legal and have a ban placed on it? How about carpetfresh, room deodorizer, weeds, incense, potpourri, hairspray, perm solution, mold, "scented" dishsoap, "fragrant soaps", and fabric softener? I have found out most of my allergies to these things the hard way (the perm incident was a REALLY "hairy" experience to say the least). Does mean I could call for a ban on these things? or sue?

Just kidding...

It doesn't matter WHAT you're allergic to (no offense of course, I mean that in context),

But if someone wants to have a gay bar, a vegitarian restaurant, a non-smoking bar, etc, I have no problem with it.

These are places that I might not necessarily choose to go to, but I'm not opposed to them existing. Basically, I'll go where I feel comfortable.
If I hate peanuts that much (and especially if I hear it's bad for my health to even breathe "peanut-air"), I won't go to a bar where they cater to peanut-eaters.. that way I won't have to be around them. Problem solved.
If the majority of bars in the area are "peanut-friendly-bars", and I can not handle it.. then I will not go.
Simple.

_________________
The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese....

I agree. I can think of vices that cause far worse problems, particularly social problems, than smoking. Some businesses choose not to serve alcohol, but I would bet if there was a ban on businesses serving alcohol altogether, there would be a HUGE outcry.

<small>[ May 11, 2006, 09:33 PM: Message edited by: teacha ]</small>

Teacha,

I stand by my point that not a single one of the things you mentioned does any serious medical damage to EVERYONE around them. The only one with a truly serious consequence to others in your list is drinking and that's if they drive (or it leads them to break some other law). I'll remind you that drinking and driving is already illegal because it's dangerous (not to mention stupid).

Are we going to overturn that law? I mean if you want to get hammered and drive home that shouldn't bother me should it. Your actions risk harming me either way.

I find it amazing that most smokers just simply cannot figure out that they are hurting others with each cig. they share with everyone around them. Maybe if I capitalize it they will actually understand...... SMOKERS, I DO NOT CARE IF YOU KILL YOURSELF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My problem comes when you slowly kill everyone around you when you exhale, and it is not a quick death, it is long, slow and very painful death both physical and emotional. Not to mention the money spent trying to fix what cig smoke has caused! Smoke all you want, just do not share!!!!!!! It is SO simple, maybe that is why they do not understand.

_________________
Spay or nueter your pets!!!!!!!

Of course there are far more serious social issues than smoking but smoking, followed closely by obesity, is the number 1 public health threat to our nation's health. The number 1 preventable cause of early death is smoking. Smoking causes not only smokers to be ill but it causes unborn babies, children, and non smokers to be ill. It is the #1 cause of lung cancer, which is the number 1 cancer killer. It also caused mouth and throat, sinus, bladder, esophageal, and kidney cancer. It is implicated in many other cancers. Babies exposed to prenatal cigarette toxins in the blood stream have smaller birth weights, higher risk of prematurity, higher risk of placenta abruption. Babies forced to breath smoke after birth have a higher rate of SIDS, ear infections, colic, respiratory infections, pneumonias, and asthma. There are NO good health effects from smoking and anyone who denies this is lying to themselves.

The other vices you list do NOT cause bad health to happen to those who do not engage in the vice, with the exception of drinking. Drinking and driving is a health danger to all. It is also against the law if your blood alcohol is 0.8 or higher. Not that that stops anyone. Anyone driving in Tomahawk, day or night, is at risk from drunk drivers, same in many other places.Drunk drivers deserve to be shipped to Siberia as far as I am concerned.

Compulsive gambling does cause major socual problems. Frankly, we need less casinos, not more.

I don't smoke, drink, use any illegal substances but I do drink Coca Cola. My consumption has no ill effects on anyone else and if they banned public consumption I'd have no problem with it.

I could care less if smokers smoke in the privacy of their own home IF there are no children present and the non smokers do not care. But NO ONE, not the Pope, not the President, NO ONE, has the right to make others breath second hand smoke. What is so fricking hard to understand, it's a health issue. 20% of the population does NOT have the right to inflict sickness causing smoke on 80% of the population. If businesses had been responsible all along there'd be no need to ban smoking. Restaurants would have totally separate eating areas with adequate ventilation. 80% of the space for the non-smokers, 20% for those who smoke. If all smokers were considerate, as some in fact are, we wouldn't be having these conversations.

If you are smoking around me you better be on fire. And if you are pregnant and smoking you do not even want me to see you. That is child abuse.

_________________
Nell

More women die of lung cancer than breast cancer. If you smoke, quit. If you don't, don't start.

Friends never lets friends drive drunk.

First let me start off by saying I do agree with you that smoking is not healthy for anyone, second hand smoke, well the book is still out on that one.

However, I do feel that if you are that offended and worried about your health as not to be around any smoke or smokers, then don't put yourself in that position. If a buisness chooses to allow smoking in their building that is their choice, not yours. Do not go there then.

As of now that is a choice of the buisness owner. But that is changing. If a buisness was losing money because no one was going there because they allowed smoking, guarenteed they would ban smoking in their place, to make up for the money. But I have not heard of any buisnesses doing such a thing. Yet, some places in Wausau and Oshkosh recently have filed a loss of profeit rule that allowed them to get smoking back into the buisness.

Bottom line, if I dont like a certain place, whether it be a bar, coffee shop,shopping mall, etc.. because of the way they run it or allow or not allow smoking, then it is my choice to go or not go there. Just as it is your choice not to be in a place of buisness that allows smoking.

_________________
Take care of yourselves and each other.

Nugget, ranting like a maniac does not help you to get your point across.
Like I said before, I am a very considerate smoker. The only place I openly smoke around non-smokers is in a bar (as rare as it is these days)...
It is legal, and when I am out in a social setting (while I AM a smoker at least), it is not my responsibility to make YOU happy.
If being around smokers makes you unhappy, then it is YOUR responsibility and YOUR choice to be somewhere else.

_________________
The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese....

Second hand smoke is responsible for my severe lung disease, and that is medically documented. Secondly, I do not patronize places that allow smoking and don't have true non-smoking areas.

Second hand smoke definitely causes serious consequences to babies and children. As a pediatric nurse I care about the health of children, even if you do not.

80% of Americans do NOT smoke. Framkly I'd like to see a week where we 80% stay home, no bowling, no restaurants, no bars. See if the 20% can keep places in business.

_________________
Nell

More women die of lung cancer than breast cancer. If you smoke, quit. If you don't, don't start.

Friends never lets friends drive drunk.

abnerman, then you are the only one! As I walk behind someone going into the building I work in, they are puffing on their cancer stick, they exhale and keep walking and the cloud of smoke hangs in the air, I am not in a building , and I must hold my breath so I do not have to smell the stench, or breath the poison into MY lungs. When I ride my bike and I am following a car, you can see the smoke rolling out the windows of the car and I can smell the stench, which means that smoker is now SHAREING their poison with me. Then the next thing I see is the cig but being tossed out the window. Both examples I am out side. Smokers even get me when I am not in a smoking building. There is no save place from smokers except home or when I am in my car. Must I not even leave my home because 20% of the population is STUPID and uncaring? It has saved me a lot of money, I do not even go into gas stations that allow smoking in the building. Does that give you an example of how far I will go to avoid the idiots and their smoke. Some day the majority will win this, so puff, puff, puff that cigerette while you can, it will end in my life time and I know it, except I will live a whole lot longer then you smokers!!!! I have better things to spend my money on then slowly committing SUICIDE. Please smoke alot so your life ends sooner and I will not have to deal with this issue any more or help to pay your medical bills as you try to recover from self inflicked illness. At over $3.00 a pack, apparently smokers have more money then brains.

_________________
Spay or nueter your pets!!!!!!!

Nugget, you hit one of my biggest pet peeves...

It drives me up the wall when I see cigarette butts come flying out of car windows. It's even worse when they are lit and thrown out toward a field, etc.

A few years ago I was sitting in a drive through and already in a strange mood. Some woman threw a butt out the window. I darn near got out of my car to flick it back in her window.

I'd love to see the cops start handing out $500 littering tickets every time a butt goes out the window (you can't tell me they don't see at least one a day). They are absolutely horrible for the environment.

As a reformed smoker living in socialist Madison, the smoking ban here, is fine, I don't mind it because of the aforementioned comments posted above. It's great when you go out & come home you don't smell like a cigarette, & you don't have to shower for 30 minutes to get the stink out, however it has hurt the business owner of the bars and restuarants. The Bar Next Door where I used work, took a huge hit and dropped their yearly sales greatly. It has closed some of bars down here. Where I have a problem with these bans, is that it is mandatory, IT IS WRONG for the government to TELL ME how to run my business. Granted there are laws and health regulations for running a food business. That is not what I am talking about. What I am talking about affects my livilhood and my family's well being and putting food on my table. It is called communism where the government tells you what to do and how to do it. I have some news for you , it DOES NOT WORK.
I think that restuarants should be smoke free, if 60% or more of your business is food, then a ban could be emplaced. I do not want to smell smoke while I am eating. However if the restaurant owner permits it, I may choose to patronize another establishment. That's why I don't like to go to Mr. Ed's sometimes because the smoke is too much. But a bar however...? And this excuse of people that work in that industry, especially as a bartender, saying that, " oh yeah I dont what to breathe that," I have one thing to say, Don't work in bar ya moron, there are plenty of other job alternatives then being a bartender, so don't give me that excuse. It's apathetic people who have no ambition that make comments like that, and won't go out and get a job. There are alot of jobs that do not require much or any education that are not in that particular industry. Trust me, I have worked in those jobs. But that is another topic.
In conclusion, I feel that mandatory smokiing bans are fine for public health, but hurts the little guy, it is another way that the far left is trying to destroy this country and suceeding, and we are allowing it. 50 years from now we may not have a country that allows the freedom we have currently because of the laws implemented today.

_________________
"Those are my principles and if you don't like them....well, I have others." - Groucho Marx

That is alright, there are too many bars anyway. Those people eho can not make it if there is a smokeing ban can just open a different business, just like a bartender can get a different job.

_________________
Spay or nueter your pets!!!!!!!

I should of previewed my last post, it should have said "Those people who can not make it if there is a smokeing ban can just open a different business, just like a bartender can get a different job."

_________________
Spay or nueter your pets!!!!!!!

I should of previewed my last post, it should have said "Those people who can not make it if there is a smokeing ban can just open a different business, just like a bartender can get a different job."

_________________
Spay or nueter your pets!!!!!!!