Community Calendar
Community
Calendar
Tomahawk Leader Internet Edition - Newspaper in Tomahawk Wisconsin Photo Album
Photo
Album
Map
Map of
Tomahawk, WI
Grey Bar
The Tomahawk Leader is a state and national prize-winning weekly newspaper serving the scenic Northwoods area in and around Tomahawk, WI.

It is currently Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:26 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 6:16 pm 
Offline
Administrator
Administrator

Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 661
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 4 times
An editorial in the 7-11-06 Tomahawk Leader...

It’s a breath of fresh air, not only for those of us who don’t care for smoking, period. But, potentially, for those who innocently are affected by the habits of others, especially children.

U.S. Surgeon General Richard H. Carmona has issued a report that concludes there is no such thing as a “no risk-free” level of exposure to secondhand smoke. In other words, you can’t get away from it even if you aren’t in the same room!

Nonsmokers, we learn, who are exposed to secondhand smoke at home or work are at a 25 to 30 percent increased risk of developing heart disease and a 20 to 30 percent higher risk of developing lung cancer. And many don’t have a choice in the matter.

The finding is termed a major public health concern because nearly half of all non-smoking Americans are still – even when the dangers of smoking are well documented – exposed to the secondhand smoke emitted by someone else.

The surgeon general findings say scientific evidence verifies that secondhand smoke causes other serious diseases, too, like respiratory illnesses such as bronchitis and asthma. In fact, it states there is no longer any scientific debate about the issue. The report further concludes exposure has substantial and immediate adverse effects on the cardiovascular system.

It’s scarier than we might have thought because separating smokers from nonsmokers in the same building and even ventilating that building apparently doesn’t prevent the consequences.

And, for those who argue otherwise, the report says smoke-free policies and regulations do not have an adverse economic impact on the hospitality industry.

If smokers can’t stomp out their cigarettes, it’s obviously time for us nonsmokers to put our foot down. We want to be smoke-free!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:57 pm 
Offline
Occasional Poster
Occasional Poster

Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 1:01 am
Posts: 13
Location: tomahawk area
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
Yes lets make everything smoke free. Of course there are no other pollutants in the world that cause health problems are there?? Hmm, could see this snowballing into more that just smokers vs non smokers. There are far more greater pollutants in the air than smoke from a little cigarette. Maybe if smoking is banned and it is never aloud again, then maybe we can find out what the more serious pollutants are that are causing the disease. If you think cancer and other medical problems people have are because of only smoking, then you must be smoking something. But for now we can put all the blame on cigarettes, the only bad thing with that is we are not paying attention to the far worst pollutants in the environment. Although we all could live in a bubble, and never be exposed to any harmfull material.

"Ill have the say so about the toothpaste in this house."

_________________
Take care of yourselves and each other.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 8:39 pm 
Offline
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor

Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 794
Location: Sadly not Tomahawk
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 12 times
Tie to Tomahawk: Called it home for many years.
Granted, there will always be harmful pollutants in our atmosphere. But I have to agree, (yes, I did smoke for many years), smokers do not have the right to mess up my space. They make the choice, let them find the place to practice that choice. My youngest son recently moved to Madison for a post-college job. Madison is not his first choice for a place to live. He'd much rather be in a smaller place. (Hmmmm, could it have something to do with the small town values instilled in him while living in Tomahawk?) Forgive me, I digress. According to my son one of the best things about living in Madison is the fact that the bars are smokeless. (OK, I know to most people it would be the diversity and variety that Madison has to offer, you must remember the kid is only 23!) My point would be that the community being smoke free is appealing to the non-smoker. Being able to socialize in a smoke free environment is very important to him, as well as many of his friends.

I have to say that at my son's college graduation party I was amazed at the number of young women smoking. I was told that the reason is that it's related to maintaining weight.

_________________
Life is too short for drama & petty things!
So, laugh insanely, love truly and forgive quickly!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:21 am 
Offline
Contributor
Contributor

Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2002 1:01 am
Posts: 157
Location: Tomahawk
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
The sooner work places are smoke free the better!!!!!! :D I can hardly contain myself, it is getting closer and closer. Yea Ha!!!!!!!!!!!! :D The day I do not have to smell the stench at work is coming!!!! :D :D

_________________
Spay or nueter your pets!!!!!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:18 pm 
Offline
Occasional Poster
Occasional Poster

Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:01 am
Posts: 11
Location: Madison, WI
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
I live and Madison, and I like the fact that I can go out to the bars and not smell like smoke, but I do not agree with the bans. They are wrong, first of all government is dictating business growth and income, I forget what the exact wording I wanted to use, anyway, all this is mostly about aesthetics. You do not want to smell like smoke, when you go out to eat. Fair enough. Well I don't want to smell people's B.O., when I go out to eat either. So I think we should implement bans on smelly people. MAKE THEM wear deodorant, if they don't fine them. Or I don't like diesel exhaust. So now I think we should ban all diesel engines becasue it makes me nauseous and pollutes the air. It is aestetically unpleasing for me to walk down State St. and have to smell the noisy smelly buses go by. So let's ban them along with the ciggys. It has nothing to do with public health, that's bunk science. Don't buy into it. It's about aesthetics.

_________________
"Those are my principles and if you don't like them....well, I have others." - Groucho Marx


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:29 pm 
Offline
Contributor
Contributor
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 233
Location: Tomahawk, WI
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 0 time
Tie to Tomahawk: Resident 1980 - 1989, retired here 5/2012
Quote:
Originally posted by Cory Gessler:
It has nothing to do with public health, that's bunk science. Don't buy into it. It's about aesthetics.
It is not bunk science. As someone who is praying the price with poor health because of second hand smoke I can assure you smoking is a serious public health issue. If it was about aesthetics smoking would be way down on the list.

Think of the babies who've died with SIDS, which is significantly higher in babies exposed to second hand smoke. Think of all the kids and adults with asthma triggered by smoke. Think of the higher rate of stillborns in women who smoke, the higher rate of abrupted placentas, which often cause death of baby and mother. Think of the children screaming with ear aches, significantly higher in children exposed to second hand smoke. Think of the non-smokers who die from lung cancer caused by second hand smoke. The public health issues related to second hand smoke is a mile long. There should be no smoking in public, period.

_________________
Nell

More women die of lung cancer than breast cancer. If you smoke, quit. If you don't, don't start.

Friends never lets friends drive drunk.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:36 pm 
Offline
Contributor
Contributor
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 233
Location: Tomahawk, WI
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 0 time
Tie to Tomahawk: Resident 1980 - 1989, retired here 5/2012
Quote:
Originally posted by Deb Richardson:
I have to say that at my son's college graduation party I was amazed at the number of young women smoking. I was told that the reason is that it's related to maintaining weight.
Deb, why did you allow smoking at the party? I have never allowed smoking at parties I host, nor will I ever. Sure, those young women would still smoke but they'd know that they can't smoke if the person giving the party says no. Maybe they'd think twice before lighting up at the next party.

Both of my sons have completely different friends but I have to say there are no smokers in either set of friends, both male and female. For that I'm thankful. My daughter lives in Tomahawk, some of her friends smoke but now that she has a child they don't smoke in her house.

_________________
Nell

More women die of lung cancer than breast cancer. If you smoke, quit. If you don't, don't start.

Friends never lets friends drive drunk.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 12:00 am 
Offline
Contributor
Contributor

Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 197
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
Tie to Tomahawk: Tomahawk
------------------------------------------


Last edited by Dopey Dwarf on Mon May 25, 2009 1:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 12:03 am 
Offline
Contributor
Contributor

Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 197
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
Tie to Tomahawk: Tomahawk
-----------------------------------


Last edited by Dopey Dwarf on Mon May 25, 2009 1:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 6:07 am 
Offline
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor

Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 794
Location: Sadly not Tomahawk
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 12 times
Tie to Tomahawk: Called it home for many years.
Nell, the kids arranged the party and it was at The Recovery Room, a bar in LaCrosse. Guess I didn't have too much say in what they do in a bar that allows smoking. None of Clint's guy friends smoke, many of them chew however! Which is so gross. What amazes me is that these guys are athletes!! Of course, these guys have been watching the pros do post game interviews with a plug in the lip for years, so it must be OK!?!? What's interesting is that these girls that smoke are friends, not girlfriends. The girlfriends are nonsmokers.

<small>[ July 14, 2006, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: Deb Richardson ]</small>

_________________
Life is too short for drama & petty things!
So, laugh insanely, love truly and forgive quickly!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 7:47 am 
Offline
Contributor
Contributor
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:01 am
Posts: 188
Location: Tomahawk
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
Tie to Tomahawk: born in Tomahawk - family
That is the bottom line Nell.........smoking should not be allowed in public-PERIOD!! It is definitely a universal health issue. Involves everyone in it's path - co-workers, people in the same enviroment, young children, etc.. it just goes to show that it is a negative factor all around.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 8:45 am 
Offline
Contributor
Contributor
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 233
Location: Tomahawk, WI
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 0 time
Tie to Tomahawk: Resident 1980 - 1989, retired here 5/2012
Quote:
Originally posted by Deb Richardson:
Nell, the kids arranged the party and it was at The Recovery Room, a bar in LaCrosse. .......... The girlfriends are nonsmokers.
Sorry Deb, I thought you meant a party at your house. It's good none of the girlfriends smoke :)

_________________
Nell

More women die of lung cancer than breast cancer. If you smoke, quit. If you don't, don't start.

Friends never lets friends drive drunk.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 8:56 am 
Offline
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor

Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 794
Location: Sadly not Tomahawk
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 12 times
Tie to Tomahawk: Called it home for many years.
It does seem strange that a bar with an ER decor allows smoking. The Recovery Room in LaCrosse, that is. Althogh taken over by the Viterbo students during the school year, the "Recov" is a neighborhood bar that does serve really good sandwiches and salads. There actually are many nonsmoking business folk that make the Recov a noontime favorite for lunch.

_________________
Life is too short for drama & petty things!
So, laugh insanely, love truly and forgive quickly!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:04 pm 
Offline
Beginner
Beginner

Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:01 am
Posts: 2
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
Why is it so difficult to allow the smoking a choice, whether you do it or submit your self to others doing it. How about if you take your hard earned money and by a tavern or resturant in the USA that you as the owner decide if smoking is allowed and you as a non smoker can decide not to spend your money there, maybe you could go down the road to a business where the owner decides there isn't any smoking allowed. You see...once you make it the law, you're going to have one heck of a time changing it back and that doesn't only go for smoking. Face it if you build too many walls inside your house it's going to be a real pain to get from one end to the other....laws aren't any different. We might want to be a little more concerned with laws that are going to REALLY protect us, and keep the choices we have as long as we can...America...land of the FREE.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:29 am 
Offline
Contributor
Contributor

Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2002 1:01 am
Posts: 157
Location: Tomahawk
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
I just want to be free from second hand smoke. Smokers, for the most part, do not give me that simple freedom. I do not care if they smoke, I just wish they would give me the freedom to breath without inhaling their leftovers. If all smokers were considerate of nonsmokers this would not be an issue now would it? :roll: To me, it is like child safety seat laws, it should not take a law to have people put their childern in a safety seat. Now I know this will date my age but, I still remember the films that drivers education used to show the students, of the child getting shot out the front window of a car because they were not belted in and the car was in an accident. Not all people are intelligent enough to secure their childern so they had to make a law, the same with second had smoke. I am only asking to be allowed to remain healthy and smokers are forcing me to breath their toxins by being near them. Now the excuse that I can just not go where there are smokers, is not valid, when I walk into a store the entrance stinks, and the person who walked in before me had to smoke right up to the entrance and then of course exhale that last puff as they enter the store, so now it is in the store and unless I hold my breath I have to breath it. Or walking in to work from the parking lot, if the person who is walking in before me is a smoker the cloud is hanging in the air so I get to walk through it, and then again hold my breath. Even driving behind a car with a smoker smoking in it, the window is down, I can see the smoke roll out and I get to hold my breath again so I do not have to breath their smoke. I am asking to breath second hand smoke free air.

_________________
Spay or nueter your pets!!!!!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:53 am 
Offline
Contributor
Contributor
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 233
Location: Tomahawk, WI
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 0 time
Tie to Tomahawk: Resident 1980 - 1989, retired here 5/2012
I'm kind of surprised, now that I think about it, that OSHA isn't more involved in this issue. The purpose of OSHA is to ensure safe working environments for employees by employers. Smoke is a well recognized health hazard and as such, when it is in the workplace, should come under OSHA regulations. I wonder if any bartenders or waiters/waitresses have used OSHA for challenging their employers.

_________________
Nell

More women die of lung cancer than breast cancer. If you smoke, quit. If you don't, don't start.

Friends never lets friends drive drunk.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:55 am 
Offline
Contributor
Contributor

Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 1:01 am
Posts: 112
Location: Wait.... where am I?
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
What I just don't get, is that so many people can't (or won't) admit that they personally have the ability to seperate themselves from something they don't like.

I could not say with honesty say that smoking is a good idea. It's a bad habit, and it's harmful to people's health.. whether it's a smoker or just someone who is around it (2nd-hand).

But it is ridiculous to sit in judgement of others and scream "bloody-murder", because you don't like something they do.
And I'm not talking about smoking "in public"... and by "in public", I mean if you are a non-smoker walking down the street, you shouldn't have to breathe in the poison that someone else chooses to inhale. I agree completely.

But bars?.... I lived in Madison. And there WERE already places that were smoke-free BEFORE this smoking ban.
There were bars that were available to people who didn't like being around cigarette smoke, and there were bars for people (and bar OWNERS) who didn't mind it.
The owners of each individual business should have the final say in the matter of who they choose to or not to alienate.

I guess that's where the hypocracy shines through.
Next it could be something that YOU do, that someone else doesn't like... you can agree that it shouldn't be something that you expose other people to or force them to do when it's against their will... but will that do any good?

(How's this sound for an example?: "I don't like it when people HUNT animals... they can get all the meat they need from Nelson's County Market without killing these animals themselves in an extremely violent and primitive manner. Grouse, Venison... it is NOT "providing for your family" when you make a decent wage (or perhaps even more than decent if you own a newspaper or have a "local government" funded income)...
If I don't like it (and there are many like "me"), I think we should ban hunting . Besides.. many people get hurt and killed every year from hunting accidents.

<small>[ July 19, 2006, 12:58 AM: Message edited by: abnerman ]</small>

_________________
The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese....


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:11 am 
Offline
Beginner
Beginner

Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:01 am
Posts: 2
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
I can't help but wonder seriously, say they did ban smoking and the ban went through. If you had to guess, what do you think the next big ban or safety law would be that would effect the general public. And again, where does it end?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:27 am 
Offline
Administrator
Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 683
Location: Madison, WI, USA
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 16 times
Tie to Tomahawk: I grew up there & family
Spambot: No
Quote:
it is NOT "providing for your family" when you make a decent wage (or perhaps even more than decent if you own a newspaper or have a "local government" funded income)...
A sad and tired argument that is probably my biggest pet peeve.

1st. No one has any idea how profitable owning a newspaper or any other business is in town or how they got to that point. I don't even know what the current income is but I do know most people would probably be surprised at just how many others in town make more, a LOT more.

2nd. We've had people make the argument that, "not everyone grows up wealthy". You might want to watch using this one too because again you probably don't know your history. For example, my dad made more money at his first job out of college than his dad ever had. Just because someone has worked their way up doesn't mean it was given to them. There is a reasonable chance they took some big risks that happened to pay off. I'm in a similar position now of looking around to see what's available but most business opportunities scare the crap out of me because there is no way to be sure I'll make any money!

3rd. Unlike a good portion of the U.S. my sister and I were taught to save. In many cases we learned this by example. As kids our family didn't always go buy the newest greatest things but the things we bought we could afford and often were "nice". There is a reason why I'm one of the few people my age with no debt. I worked three jobs in high school, two in college, and two now. I learned not to buy unless I can afford it and I'm willing to earn the things I want.

Finally, and this is probably my biggest point (and not directed at anyone in particular), if you don't like your income stop whining, no one cares. Go do something about it! Take the risks that many of the people you look at as doing so well already took. I went to college for 5 years and have been working for the same company, promoted a few times and my salary is now higher than some of those "more than decent" people's (and no, it still isn't as high as you probably think). I had more experience than many people twice my age though. I've also now earned the respect of many coworkers as a forward thinker and am often considered one of the up-and-coming young employees.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:12 pm 
Offline
Contributor
Contributor
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 233
Location: Tomahawk, WI
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 0 time
Tie to Tomahawk: Resident 1980 - 1989, retired here 5/2012
Quote:
Originally posted by abnerman:
But bars?.... I lived in Madison. And there WERE already places that were smoke-free BEFORE this smoking ban.
There were bars that were available to people who didn't like being around cigarette smoke, and there were bars for people (and bar OWNERS) who didn't mind it.
The owners of each individual business should have the final say in the matter of who they choose to or not to alienate.
I think, at least here in Saint Paul, part of the problem is there are so few bars that do not also serve food. A bar only facility is a place where only adults should go. People who like hanging out in bars, like Kahn's for example, tend to also smoke. I wouldn't have a problem with bar owners choosing smoking or no smoking as long as no food is served. Once you add food you become a place where non drinkers and non smokers also go to eat. Can anyone honestly say that the Pine Tree offers smoke free eating? Even in the back room you still smell smoke. When I go out to eat I don't care to breathe second hand smoke. But more importantly I know second hand smoke is dangerous to everyone's health. Maybe there have been smoke free bars before bans but I sure never knew of any and I never ran into smoke free restaurant anywhere in this country, Mexico, El Salvador, Colombia, England, or Ireland.

_________________
Nell

More women die of lung cancer than breast cancer. If you smoke, quit. If you don't, don't start.

Friends never lets friends drive drunk.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:17 am 
Offline
Contributor
Contributor

Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 1:01 am
Posts: 112
Location: Wait.... where am I?
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
Quote:
There is a reason why I'm one of the few people my age with no debt. I learned not to buy unless I can afford it and I'm willing to earn the things I want.
Which is a smarter way of doing things than most people our age....
I have always approached things in the same way as you described, but lately it is becoming more difficult to stay true to it.
I guess as I get a bit older I start to think that I might have been depriving myself of certain things that would have brought me enjoyment. And although I may have a fairly good situation as far as debt is concerned, I can't help but think that perhaps the years past might have been even more of a positive experience than they already were.. if I had just allowed myself to have the things (within reason) that I wanted.
I can't go back and change the past, but I can certainly analyze and interpret it, and apply what I learn about myself to the future.
I suppose you could say I am in the transition to finding a "happy medium" at this point.

_________________
The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese....


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:26 am 
Offline
Contributor
Contributor

Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 1:01 am
Posts: 112
Location: Wait.... where am I?
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
Quote:
Originally posted by NurseNell:
Quote:
Originally posted by abnerman:
[b]But bars?.... I lived in Madison. And there WERE already places that were smoke-free BEFORE this smoking ban.
There were bars that were available to people who didn't like being around cigarette smoke, and there were bars for people (and bar OWNERS) who didn't mind it.
The owners of each individual business should have the final say in the matter of who they choose to or not to alienate.
I think, at least here in Saint Paul, part of the problem is there are so few bars that do not also serve food. A bar only facility is a place where only adults should go. People who like hanging out in bars, like Kahn's for example, tend to also smoke. I wouldn't have a problem with bar owners choosing smoking or no smoking as long as no food is served. Once you add food you become a place where non drinkers and non smokers also go to eat. Can anyone honestly say that the Pine Tree offers smoke free eating? Even in the back room you still smell smoke. When I go out to eat I don't care to breathe second hand smoke. But more importantly I know second hand smoke is dangerous to everyone's health. Maybe there have been smoke free bars before bans but I sure never knew of any and I never ran into smoke free restaurant anywhere in this country, Mexico, El Salvador, Colombia, England, or Ireland.[/b]
I can't argue with you there Nell.. even as a smoker, I agree completely about public restaurants.
Here in Az, there are also many bars that serve food as well.. I've been to a few that do not allow smoking during the hours that they serve food (usually until 9:00 or 10:00 pm), and then smoking is allowed for the "bar-only" hours (there are also other bars that are always completely smoke-free).. I personally think this is a very reasonable way to cater to both sides.

_________________
The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese....


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
POWERED_BY
Localized by Maël Soucaze © 2010 phpBB.fr