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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:58 pm 
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FED UP!!!!

I'm the brother of Jacob Baars. Yeah , go ahead, Think what you want, I don't really give a crap! I have never stole anything, nor have ever had any felony charges against me! But....As far as Jacob goes, Don't you think it's time to talk about someone else? Don"t get me wrong, Jacob should be punished for his crimes! But..As you may recall , The media also announced there was 6 other individuals involved in this rash. But.... All we ever hear is Jacob, Jacob, Jacob! Why don't we turn the tables for once, and lets start talking about the others involved in these cases, And what they have committed. If I recall , They were also part of arson, burglary, theft, a horse shooting! DO WE HEAR OF THEM????? Some of you, yes, Have said " Jacob and others involved". But, For the most part all I read in this message board is attacks against my brother, like he is the only one who committed these crimes. So, Instead of bringing his name into this every time you want to voice your opinion on this matter, Why not bring one of the other parties up to? They are just as guilty as Jacob is!

KURT B
Brother

<small>[ December 01, 2006, 11:27 PM: Message edited by: butler54487 ]</small>


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:17 am 
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Well dah, the reason it's all about Jacob here is that the original post was by his sister, which would also be your sister, butler54487. Maybe you need to talk with her about opening this partiacular can of worms.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:32 am 
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just remember Deb , Its wasn't Jacobs family that committed these crimes! Someday it may be one of your family members behind those bars, and we can judge you , as you are now judging us, for something we had no control over!


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:47 am 
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Whenever something like this happens it is always the family and those who are close that suffer the most. As you say, the family did none of the criminal deeds, but they have to suffer along with those who did. I am certain that everyone on this message board has a great deal of compassion for the rest of the family in all this, but that does not change the reality of what happened. Those of us who know Jacob were surprised when we heard that he was involved in all this, but he was and that is a reality. It is good that you support your brother in his time of need, but make no mistake about who is responsible for the hurt and humiliation you are feeling. It is not all the rest of us, it is him.....sadly, it is. Keep your anger and hurt aimed in the right direction so that it will do some real good in the long run.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:47 am 
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Deb Richardson

Who are you to say there were no second thoughts given to invading these properties and stealing objects? Did you ask Jacob if he ever had a second thought? I think not.

D Polar:

It is not my intention to insult the victims of these crimes. You say these possessions held special memories. The memories are not in the possessions, they are in your mind and heart. If you take offense to the things I have said then I am sorry. You still have your memories sir. These possessions may have played a part in these memories but the memories themselves are not gone. They still reside within yourself. I will say again. I do not condone what these men have done. It was wrong and horrible. A persons life is too valuable. Wishing Jacob to rot in jail for years and years will not bring back these possessions. It wont help anyone. And sir, I tell you this in full confidence. Jacob Daniel Baars would never shoot anyone even if you came upon him burglarizing your home. I would stake my life on it if it helps you to understand my seriousness. As far as the quotes around stolen guns, I only implied that just because they were found in Jacobs possession does not mean he stole your son's or any of them for that matter. There were others involved with these robberies. The courts will hopefully find out the truth. Again I do not wish to insult and if I have I apologize.

Mimi:

Just because a few people have done bad things doesn't mean that the entire human race is corrupted. Your spiritual beliefs are your own but when you meet your maker I believe repenting of your sins will matter quite a bit as well. (Example: The thief on the cross next to Jesus.)

Haley:

I am in Texas because I have family close to school and It is one of 6 maritime academies in the U.S. This doesn't mean at all that I love Texas. It was out of necessity. I don't know exactly what you mean when you put the word military type in there. If you are trying to insult the brave men and women of our armed forces defending you are yours everyday then shame on you. Just because you are a Military-Type doesn't mean at all that you have the Hang 'em high mentality. And I can find it within myself to forgive anyone. Most terrorists believe that they are doing the things they do for their God. I don't condone what they do, its horrible. However, I respect peoples beliefs which doesn't mean I agree with their actions. I have stated many times now that Jacob is responsible for his actions. He made the choice! Read the my posts completely!!!! And no offense to George Carlin, but I don't believe at all that the church screws people up. The Christian church sends the greatest message of all.

My suggestions for you, take a hard look at yourself and your ability to forgive.

And just the fact that Deb thinks that your post was nicely stated shows what kind of people you really are.

Catfish:

I know a lot of people in Tomahawk and haven't heard of you. Your name calling has no merit. You make no sense. I think you should look up these words you use on the Internet before you start using them. (Just a suggestion.) Then maybe people will be able to take you seriously.

Arizay, Deb Richardson, & Kerry Tobin:

(I apologize to animal lovers everywhere for speaking the truth but someone has too) Horses are no different then the cow that sits on your dinner plate every night. They are animals. No doubt someone loved these horses very much. They are not people and if someone went out and shot your son or daughter it would be completely different. It was wrong to shoot the horses. Jacob was wrong and I don't understand what he was thinking. But pets are replaced everyday when they die. Kerry, you say that these items can not be replaced. You contradict yourself by saying this. “She listened to the iPod while receiving her treatments, etc. Sure, it's a device that can simply be replaced” I don't believe I ever said that the sentimental value could be replaced. I merely said that the items could be replaced as did you. I do understand.

Now, your going to say that I'm just playing with words, but I was comparing these things to a persons life. A persons life is much more valuable. Unless you believe that your friend would rather have this ipod than her life. Having Jacob Sit in jail for a long long time will solve nothing. I know that Jacob will get jail time but for people to petition to make that longer will solve nothing!

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:01 am 
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Deb, Deb, Deb,

I had to add this because I found it absolutely ridiculous. Do you realize what you are saying when you say pets will not turn on you? Everyday pets turn on there masters and others. I personally remember a few years back one of my friends sister's face was bitten severely by their family dog. This dog had been part of the family for years. Pets do not love unconditionally. They know who feeds them and plays with them. Stop doing that and we will see if they still love you. Come on now, be realistic.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 8:53 am 
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I certainly understand the anger and frustration that comes when somebody you are close to commits a crime. I have been in that position. The rumors and talk do take a toll, but there is no reason to personally attack anybody for stating their opinion.

You might consider the fact that you DO post your real name, and if/when the time comes that you return to Tomahawk, you may find only ashes in the place of the bridges that you are currently burning.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:56 pm 
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Originally posted by JayOMF:
You might consider the fact that you DO post your real name, and if/when the time comes that you return to Tomahawk, you may find only ashes in the place of the bridges that you are currently burning.
Hear, hear!

I have a lot of issues with Glenn's statement that "the Christian church sends the greatest message of all", but that's for another time and day. Glenn, stick to the issue instead of getting defensive. You said that you don't think Jacob should be fully punished, didn't you? If not, what was the point of replying? What point are you trying to get across? I don't really know what you're trying to say, except that you hate liberals, and oh yeah, support our troops you dirty godless jerks.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:10 pm 
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Take a breath Glenn Younger!! You might pass out!BTW, you didn't get the point about pets. I meant they won't turn on you emotionally.

To butler54487, I was not judging your family, I was just pointing out that if your sister had not written the editorial this discussion would not exist. FYI, butler54487 I do have a nephew who will be spending the next 6 months in jail on drug charges. His mother wanted a family member to talk with the judge, as the judge is an aquaintance, to "go easy" on my nephew, the family member refused. Hats off to my father-in-law for not doing so. He felt that his grandson should pay the full price for his actions and at the same time hopefully learn from being made to take responsibility for his actions. I am certainly well aware of the feelings a family deals with when a family member is going to jail.

<small>[ December 02, 2006, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: Deb Richardson ]</small>

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 5:11 pm 
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To **** with the bridges! I will defend my good friend to the end. The bridges I once had in Tomahawk are of no consequence. I say again To **** with all my bridges! I want people to see what I have said and I don't care if it makes them think less of me. I will still walk in Tomahawk with my head held high and if anyone wishes to have words with me when I get there then bring it on. I'll be back on the 15th!

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:52 pm 
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I'm all for defending your friend, but slandering everyone else isn't exactly the best method of defense. Unless you're a politician.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 9:34 am 
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Glenn Younger, I certainly hope that those you have alienated here realize that it is due to the inexpierence of youth. With that realization I'm sure your burned bridges can be rebuilt. It is great that you support your friend. What concerns me is the whole attitude of not taking responsibility and blaming others.
My gosh, you do need to take a breath or you will pass out! (Smiley face with a wink!)(That was for Jeff.)

<small>[ December 03, 2006, 08:36 AM: Message edited by: Deb Richardson ]</small>

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 12:18 pm 
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I could go along with a lighter sentence if this had been a one-time event where these young men got caught up in something that they lacked either the maturity or the self-discipline to get out of. Peer pressure and the desire to fit in can make the more weak-willed do things that they otherwise know that they shouldn't. Let's face it - we all made stupid mistakes at that age.
The trouble here is that there were a long series of incidents that occurred over many months and not one of the individuals involved stopped what they were doing until they were finally caught. Not one.
I would expect that a generally honest, decent kid (as some here have opined) would have listened to his conscience long before then, recognized that what he was involved with was wrong, and stepped back from the dark side. That didn't happen.
That tells me that this is NOT a simple mistake on someone's part, or 'falling in with the wrong crowd'. It's a lifestyle choice and those choices will have consequences. During and following those consequences, which I'd want to be no more than firm and fair, I'd hope that the families and friends of these young men will make every effort to help them learn to change their ways.

<small>[ December 04, 2006, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: Brian ]</small>

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:55 am 
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Just one more post, and I will most likely "bow out" of this discussion.

Glenn... I'm not quite sure where you got the idea I believe the entire human race is corrupted. I think you're really letting your emotions run rampant while you compose your replies. I certainly don't believe that, and I've re-read my posts and can't quite figure out how you put that together.

As I've said before, hopefully all of these young adults will use their incarceration time wisely and become productive members of society. They are all young enough that this is possible.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 2:06 am 
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Quote:
Originally posted by butler54487:
just remember Deb , Its wasn't Jacobs family that committed these crimes! Someday it may be one of your family members behind those bars, and we can judge you , as you are now judging us, for something we had no control over!
...How was Deb "judging you" and the rest of the family in anything that she said?
Who said it "was Jacob's family that commited these crimes"?
I haven't seen anything even remotely negative directed at the rest of your family (and of course that's the way it SHOULD be).. I for one offer best wishes to your family while going through this.

And Glenn, you are obviously a very devoted friend..
But don't let your support for your friend get in the way of your ability to communicate in a civil, rational, and intelligent matter regarding the situation.

You may not intend to, but your ranting has been completely trivializing the victims and what THEY have gone through.
("A person's horse is no different than a cow on your dinner plate"?!.. WTF is wrong with you?)

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:15 am 
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Like it or not Mr. Abnerman Horses are no different than the cow on your dinner plate. If you would have read any of the last posts that I put up then you would understand that I was trying to get across that a human beings life is more important than a **** horses, and that wanting Jacob to sit in jail for a prolonged time would solve nothing. Now I'm going to make another point just to **** you off a little more. Pigs are considered one of the smarter animals on this planet yet we eat them all the time too. Just because horses have achieved an elevated status in our society makes them no more human than that pig on you dinner plate

I'm not here to be nice. I could give a **** about your feelings. If I step on anyones toes, O Well! You all have too thin of skin. It is an animal. We are human beings. They were put here to eat. It doesn't make what they did right! Now I have said these things over and over again. To **** with you sir. Read the posts!

One more thing. I kept this issue civil until others started to throw insults around. I even stated that this was a respectable site and a very serious issue. You people continued to throw insults around and since I am obviously out numbered in this issue I wasn't going to sit there and take it. You people brought the whole thing off subject and opened up whole new issues. Since you placed the new issues in your posts and directed many of your comments at me personally, I responded. You don't like what you hear then tough.

We can't all get along if you continue to insult (WTF is wrong with you?)

Now since this whole thing has drastically gotten off topic and has become a personal attack on me, I will discontinue writing. Maybe I made it that way but oh well. I got you people thinking of something other than Hanging my friend High. And maybe, just maybe I changed one persons mind on this issue. I have done what I sought out to do.

Good day.

One last thing. Mimi. I'm going to obviously have to help you understand what you posted as well since you obviously can't. Here we go... You reading?.....This is what you said, “And material things were NOT the most important things stolen. It was security and trust in our fellow human beings. I will say it again. Just because a couple of people have done bad things doesn't mean that the entire human race(Fellow human beings) is corrupted. Don't lose faith in your fellow man!

Deb Deb Deb, I don't need to take a breath. In fact I am breathing fine. I actually just went out and took a three mile run. How about you? And Deb, I'm glad I don't have a family that would just hang me out to dry when I got in trouble. Thats messed up. There are other ways to teach someone to learn from their mistakes, and it doesn't mean that you condone what they have done.

I got to stop this whole thing is getting no where and you people are not worth arguing with.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:17 am 
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I have to fix this because I know someone will say something.

*****I have to stop this whole thing. It's getting nowhere and you people are not worth arguing with.****

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:53 am 
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Glenn,

I completely agree with your desire to help your friend. However, and this is not a personal attack by any means, the way you are going about it is not going to convince anyone. Remember, this is coming from an outside view and I don't know if I know any of those who committed the crimes, their families or the victims (not even sure who the victims are).

The first step in negotiating your position is acknowledging the other sides point of view. By acknowledging their views and showing you understand their concerns you increase the ability to have a rational discussion.

After you have acknowledged their point one of the best things you can do is apologize (even if it isn't your fault). This will help calm the person down even further.

Once this is done it becomes much easier to explain your side since they are now willing to listen to you. After hearing both sides most people are much more rational and you meet in the middle.

Sadly, by saying, "to **** with" and implying that the things the victims have lost are trivial and can be replaced you've done much more harm to your cause than you've helped. Implying that people's pets are meaningless makes it seem like you don't feel what was done was wrong (right or wrong many people will feel otherwise). Angering the victims further will simply increase their desire for revenge which is not what anyone is going to want in the end.

There are some things the family and friends of those who committed these crimes could try to do to improve the situation. Things like offering to help find replacements for items lost and destroyed (the lanterns mentioned earlier are probably difficult to locate). Also, reminding people that if their things are being kept as evidence then negotiating a settlement should help reduce the time it takes to get their property back and reduce your friends sentence. You also could push for earlier release or work release so that those who committed the crimes can work to help pay for some of the damage they caused (insurance doesn't cover everything). Any of these things offers a good reason to be more willing to hear your voice and two of them might even make the victims lives better.

Finally, overall I suspect that all of those involved will spend some time in jail. There were too many crimes committed to say it was simply peer pressure. Hopefully the courts will sort out who was most responsible and issue the sentences appropriately but some pretty hefty crimes were committed. Most likely it will be somewhere in the middle of the sentencing guidelines and fortunately sentences aren't left up to mobs (or petitions for that matter) so the hang 'em high group didn't have any say in the first place.

Best wishes to all those involved!


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:11 am 
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Kerry, you are waaaaay too young to have that kind of wisdom! Nice reply. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:42 pm 
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Mr. Younger, I am over three times older and experienced than you are. I DO know what the words I use mean. You don't. You haven't any idea of my knowledge and background. I choose to be a private type of person in my old age and that is probably why none of 'your' friends know who I am. Why do you care who I am? Listen to my words is all you need to do.
As far as you believing nothing will be accomplished by putting these perps away to take responsibility for their actions, you are wrong. When people like the "Northwoods Seven" gang get caught for their crimes and get off with a light slap on the wrist punishment, it sends a message to other siblings and peers to believe that you might as well have "fun", because I can take a slap on the wrist if I get caught. While stealing in some other countries gets your hand chopped off(I don't mean to condone this) you can bet that those in that country will think long and hard and more seriously about doing something and earning that punishment. Here in Tomahawk, I'm sure if the wanna-be gangsters see that these seven were incarcerated for 10-15 years in the prime of their lives, they would think of that as a deterent for some of their choices.
But why should Jacob have to send that message? I don't know....maybe because he did the crime and got caught.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:49 pm 
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Response from the owners of the horses:

As many of you know on Sept. 10, 2006, two of our horses were shot. One died on the spot (Shilo) and Champ, the other, pulled through. These horses were not shot by mistake but shot with the intent to kill both.

That morning according to the police report the defendants shot three different times at the horses. The first time one of the defendants shot Shilo in the neck, then drove away, turned around, came back. Then the other defendant took the gun and in his words: put the scope of the gun on the white horse (Shilo) the one that was already shot in the neck and pulled the trigger to see him fall … That is when Shilo was shot just below the right eye … and died instantly … And then they drove away again to only turn around again in our neighbor’s driveway to return to shoot Champ, “As they put it the brown horse.” The first shot hit Champ in the leg but the next shot to be, was interrupted by a green mini van coming around the corner … That is when they were finally scared off … if not for that van, Champ would also have been killed that morning …

Now …I read in the paper that through this “petition” we are made to think this is a Jesse James lynch mob action … I must reply to this and what this petition is really all about. After the first defendant was arrested and was released on $500 cash bond – In less than 48 hours a letter C.C. to us, from the (District Attorney’s office) addressed to this first defendant arrived at our house wanting a plea bargain (deal) – and again I say in less than 48 hours this took place. In this plea bargain they wanted to drop three of the four charges, pay part of what the horse (Shilo) was worth, two years’ probation no fines but costs, six months in county jail … needless to say within four minutes of reading that letter I called the District Attorney’s office in total disbelief … he was busy at the time but did return my call later. After having a quite lengthy talk which I felt was going nowhere, I said goodbye. Sitting in total disbelief and frustrated with this whole situation, I knew there had to be something done.

Now I’m not one with great faith in our system … but it is the only system we have. And after reading and hearing of all the plea bargains and little deals that go on and seeing all of these people getting off with the slap of the fingers all the time, to only continue on in the same path, returning back to court because nothing has been learned. There must be a stand made somewhere and that stand is to hold the people who are elected to these offices responsible. This petition is the only thing available to us, the people … The vote and written public opinion, seems to be the only thing that will make these people listen, I’m sorry to say. That is the reason for this petition, that justice will be served.

And to the sister of one of the defendants who wrote in the paper. I totally understand her frustrations also. She claims people are making her family feel shame, which is totally wrong if that is happening (for anyone to do that is just not right). They have done nothing wrong … and as she states it was the parents who turned their own son in. Think of the character they have. How many other people could do that. My wife and I thank them for that. I also want to address the claim about peer pressure to blame in the shooting. I look at it this way, when the crosshairs of that rifle were put on Shilo’s head, there was a decision to be made at that time to pull the trigger or not. A choice was made – the trigger was pulled and as she said he will have to live with that the rest of his life ... that decision was not “peer pressure” at that moment …

As far as both defendants are concerned I have made my peace with God on this and as the sister says he will make his judgment on this … but our system needs to follow through with its justice here.

My wife, Jean, and I would also like to thank all our neighbors, friends and kind citizens for all the tips, concerns and support and the outstanding job the county sheriff’s departments and State Patrol, Tomahawk and Merrill Police Departments put forth. “Now we need the rest of the system to work correctly.”

Thank you,

Al Rahlf
Town of Skanawan


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:16 pm 
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Yup, Glenn Younger, take a breath or a Valium. What ever it takes to calm you down. Did I say I would hang a family member out to dry? NO. I just feels it's right that my nephew pay the price for breaking the law. "Going easy" would not serve him well. Selling drugs to underage people is pretty serious or to anyone for that matter! Looks like the pot is calling the kettle black when it comes to the judgement label.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:35 pm 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn Younger:
Like it or not Mr. Abnerman Horses are no different than the cow on your dinner plate. If you would have read any of the last posts that I put up then you would understand that I was trying to get across that a human beings life is more important than a **** horses, and that wanting Jacob to sit in jail for a prolonged time would solve nothing. Now I'm going to make another point just to **** you off a little more. Pigs are considered one of the smarter animals on this planet yet we eat them all the time too. Just because horses have achieved an elevated status in our society makes them no more human than that pig on you dinner plate

I'm not here to be nice. I could give a **** about your feelings. If I step on anyones toes, O Well! You all have too thin of skin. It is an animal. We are human beings. They were put here to eat. It doesn't make what they did right! Now I have said these things over and over again. To **** with you sir. Read the posts!

One more thing. I kept this issue civil until others started to throw insults around. I even stated that this was a respectable site and a very serious issue. You people continued to throw insults around and since I am obviously out numbered in this issue I wasn't going to sit there and take it. You people brought the whole thing off subject and opened up whole new issues. Since you placed the new issues in your posts and directed many of your comments at me personally, I responded. You don't like what you hear then tough.

We can't all get along if you continue to insult (WTF is wrong with you?)

Now since this whole thing has drastically gotten off topic and has become a personal attack on me, I will discontinue writing. Maybe I made it that way but oh well. I got you people thinking of something other than Hanging my friend High. And maybe, just maybe I changed one persons mind on this issue. I have done what I sought out to do.

Good day.

I got to stop this whole thing is getting no where and you people are not worth arguing with.
There is nothing wrong with wanting to defend your friend, it's actually quite commendable.

Unfortunately the way you have chosen to bring your support for him across to others in the hopes that they may better understand your point of view.. has been nothing short of offensive, dismissive, and just plain insensitive towards the victims of the crimes.

Go ahead, support your friend. It's what he (and his family) needs right now.
What he DOESN'T need, is you trying to turn this into some kind of personal crusade to convince people that what they think is wrong.

There's nothing wrong with you vouching for Jacob's character. I applaud you for that. Of course you don't condone what happened, no one ever said you did.

You may have the best of intentions, but through sheer belligerence you have managed to alienate yourself from the people you are trying to convince, and also from others that have offered support on his behalf.

Go ahead, tell these people that their family pets are nothing more than "meat".. tell the victims of the thefts that the sentimental value is in their head.

Just do your friend a favor and leave his name out of it from now on.

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The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese....


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 7:42 am 
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I don't think we are going to hear from Glenn Younger again, as he said-

*****I have to stop this whole thing. It's getting nowhere and you people are not worth arguing with.****

Perhaps the defensiveness of Mr. Younger is due to being extremely hurt by the actions of his friend. It has to be a very hard thing to accept a friend commiting such awful crimes.

As far as the worth of the people here, we must be right up there with the piece of meat (cow or horse) on a plate. Yes, Mr. Younger you to will someday mature. Good luck with your studies.

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So, laugh insanely, love truly and forgive quickly!


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:53 am 
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If you taken the time to visit any area businesses that support this petition, and read the petition you'll realize that the petition states nothing about hand em high. The people that are supporting the decision to prosecute these individuals, yes these individuals, not just Jacobb, have the right to say what they feel in the comment section. And "hang em high" comes from many citizens of Wisconsin, not just Tomahawk. Nobody said to hang em high, in the petition. That is everyones own personal place to comment on the situation. If that is what they feel should be done, that is their opinion and they are entitled to it.


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